Wildly Successful Origins Giveaway

origin2"You're not supposed to be here today. We are not ready!" That was the reaction of one atheist at UCLA when we showed up on the 18th to give away 2,000 books. He was right. We originally intended to give the copies of On the Origin of Species out on the 19th, but because of the threats of book burnings, of "unilateral resistance," and the many threats to tear out the Introduction, we changed our strategy. We are so glad we made this move. Atheists had planned to disguise themselves as students and collect multiple copies themselves to stop students getting the books.  

 

One atheist wrote: "I wish people would stop ragging on him distributing the books early. It's a good strategic move to try to pre-empt our events, themselves intended to oppose his. It's a purely political thing and in his position I'd likely have done much the same thing. It's pretty similar to a route being changed or a meeting set earlier than scheduled in order to foil a protest -- it's a legitimate tactic, no matter how frustrating." 

 

The Yale Daily News said, "The book-giving event was originally scheduled for Thursday, effectively ruining the plans of the SSA to counter the creationists' event with their own, more satirical, on-campus event." 

 

The Secular Student Association went to some expense with colorful bookmarks with a picture of a banana on them. I offered to pay their printing bill, but as yet haven't heard back from them.

But for a few copies being destroyed and one atheist managing to collect 22 copies for himself, everything went very smoothly. All we wanted to do was peacefully pass out the books and it was wildly successful.

  

A team in England also passed out 1,000 copies to Oxford University students. Richard Dawkins has told students to rip out the Introduction, that they are cousins of bananas, that nothing created everything, and that anyone who didn't believe as he did, was "wicked." So we went to his home university to let students know that they are not cousins of bananas, that God created them, and that they are free to believe anything they wish. We also sent him a very nice gift basket along with his own copy of the book, and yes . . . I had a banana put into the basket. But we didn't say who the gift basket was from. We will leave him to formulate his own theory as to its origin.

 

 We are working on a documentary of the Origin into Schools project, and will give you progress reports.

  

We are so grateful to the nearly 2,000 Christians that cared enough about the lost, to help us get the gospel into the hands of 171,000 people (minus 22). Please know that this is just the beginning.

 

Comments (905)
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s richrol  - "I was a Christian"
    The writer says he was "born & raised a Christian", which makes it clear
    that he was never a Christian. Nobody is born a Christian. You become one when
    you repent of what you are - a sinner who wanted nothing to do with God - and
    put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. One should really learn what the Bible
    says a Christian is, before he says he was one. One more thing; nobody was a
    Christian. If you're not one now, you never were.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s IWNS  - funny yet sad
    reading through these comments I find it funny that most are from athiests with
    the "xians r stoopid lolz!" kind of mentality. Insulting, rude,
    ignorant (you really don't know what 'xians' believe and never will because of
    your pride), dishonest (disguising yourselves as students to ruin this book give
    away, which they changed the date to ruin your surprise), hateful and it shows
    the 2 worldviews in perfect light.

    Yours no respect for morals or even others, similar mentality to communist
    thinking 'kill whatever is different and force others to listen only to what we
    say' it shows to others who are on the fence exactly where an athiest worldview
    will get them. The results aren't also in the evidence (which is changed by
    whatever presuppositions the on-looker has) but in the fruit of those beliefs
    and looking at what you write and how you speak it's clear your beliefs would
    kill the innocent if it opposed your wo...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s peeCee  - Books Change People's Lives
    There's no need of elaboration about this, books change people's lives. The
    Bible is a library itself which composes several books. And giving away these On
    The Origin of Species, I highly believe lives are changed. I hope I can have one
    even if I'm not from U.S. so that I can give it to a friend who has all the time
    he makes despite his hectic schedule to read the so called leadership books but
    professes to be an atheist. Moreso, may people heed & listen to the message they
    have heard thru this book.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Filipe  - Christians FTW
    Its refreshing to see how christian are still so active, in our current world.
    It makes the rest of us - atheists, agnostics and everyone else in between -
    feel smarter than we actually are.



    One may know NOTHING about science or evolution, and still feel superior to
    "fundies" who believe whatever the Bible tells them. Its like a public
    service. I hope you keep at it, for years to come. If you gave up, we'd all
    think alike: no God, no religion, no fairy tales, no fun.



    About the
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s richrol  - Superior?
    I doubt very much that you'll still have that superior feeling when you stand
    before the Lord Jesus Christ at the great white throne.
    I really do hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will cause you to think!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Nate chapman  - Censorship
    I just saw this really interesting movie by these guys based out of new York.
    This event makes me think about it. The film is called "the evangelist"
    I'd highly recommend it, I don't know when it's showing but their website is
    www.evangelistmovie.com
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s me  - oh yeah
    And to all those who are disputing my last entry.... the laws and commandments
    are made as a mirror to show you how bad mankind truly is . God said "BE
    GOOD" not so that he can condemn you but help you turn away from the
    stumbling blocks of life. The evil things that will harm you and others. like
    Jesus said, the greatest commandments of all is to love your neighbor as you
    love yourself, and to love your Lord God with all your heart and all your soul,
    then all other commandments fall under these. In other words. Choose Christ!
    LOVE!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dr. Tobias F  - On addictions and flawed logic
    Dear christians,

    This message is brought to you by an ex-christian. I was born and raised in a
    christian househould, studied the bible (required of me in private school)and
    believed exactly what many of you now believe.

    Marx was right on when he called religion the opiate of the masses.

    Opiates, such as heroin, oxycodone, hydrocodone, or fentanyl cause a massive
    release of dopamine which gives the user intense feelings of warmth, pleasure,
    and peace.

    Most, if not all opiate addicts rate very highly in cynicism. That is, they
    often suffer from existential depression, in which they truly acknowledge the
    fact that they are purposeless and irrelevant in the grand scheme of the
    universe. The opiate addict therefore takes this drug to fill that void in his
    or herself.

    Rather than using opiates, christians fill themselves with hope for something
    better than what they're experiencing in this...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave  - Dear Glen
    My belief in the Christian world view does not give me a feeling of warmth and
    trnaquility as you mistakenly assume. To be truthfull, it actually grips me with
    fear. It's the only word view that accurately describes who we are and the
    reality we exist in. If it's true, then everyone of us has much to fear.



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s me  - to all athiests
    Just to let you know i am a christian who was not raised in a christian home,
    and was not forced into the idea of a relationship with Christ. He found me and
    I received him. It sounds like to me that being forced into the idea of strict
    laws, commandments, religious rituals and private schools damaged you and your
    view on Christ. Sounds like a pharisee childhood. but my relationship with
    christ is real relationship that is not based on how i perform, but my
    recognition and reception of true love and it's Origin, GOD. And if you choose
    not to believe christ you will not see him. Hebrews11:1 Faith is the substance
    of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Now you know that if
    you truly want to see God and his works you need to make a personal decision to
    recieve his truths and he will show you.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s You Are So  -  Off Topic
    Faith is a result of true hope. Drug use is a result of false hope.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tyler Lindsey  - Marx was on to something there!
    Yes, it's true. Religion, in the end, will leave one hopeless and empty. There
    is no hope, purpose, or substance in religion. It is a deceiver. Our Creator,
    however, is not religious, nor can anyone gain salvation through religion. What
    we have is much greater than a sense of peace. Oh, it is a real peace. I'm
    sure that one might have a sense of peace if he was able to stake everything
    that he is on the belief that there is no judgement, no eternal life and no
    consequences. Yet, it seems that life itself teaches us that there are
    consequences. There is pain, untimely death, and heartache and so much more.
    There is no peace in religion; it is dead. Run away from religion and run to
    the one who knows your name- the one who loves you and has paid your fine; He
    paid your debt. His mercy is all over you. I would hope you would run away
    from religion and trust in Him. don't wait until it's too late and you find
    your...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s You Are So  - Right
    Religion, in the end, will leave one hopeless and empty. Religion does not have
    the power to save us, Jesus, the power of God, does.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Fluid
    a substance, as a liquid or gas, that is capable of flowing and that changes its
    shape at a steady rate when acted upon by a force tending to change its shape.

    According to the dictionary air is a fluid. therfore I am corrected. Yet the
    propogation of these sound waves have only been shown in the liquid not the
    gass. No one has ever shown the liquid water phenomenon in the gasseous air.
    These prpagatory observations are still relegated to the water and only the
    water. Science extrapolated these liquid fluid observations to the gasseous
    fluids. The extrapolation happened because they cannot demonstrate them in the
    air and used LOGIC to say a fluid is a fluid.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio  - Glen you have made one misconception.
    "There are no fluids in the AIR..." is incorrect because air IS a fluid.
    In fact sound waves travel much better in water and they can be observed. You
    are ignoring the example that really does answer your question (assuming you
    were looking for an answer). The waves formed in the water is the water matching
    waves with the sound waves being produced.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio  - Founding Fathers
    You are correct that the North American colonies were in large established by
    religious puritans fleeing religious persecution in Europe. However, If you want
    to talk about the traditions that the American country was founded on you would
    have to jump forward to the founding fathers. This country was not founded on
    Christianity. All of the founding fathers had diverse beliefs. Franklin and
    Jefferson were deists, Washington harbored a pantheistic sense of providential
    destiny, John Adams began a Congregationalist and ended a Unitarian and
    Hamilton was a Anglican.

    Also note that although the Declaration of Independence mentioned
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Liz  - :D
    Ahh this is so awesome! I own one copy and it's amazing, God bless you Ray for
    doing what you're doing.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Darrin  - For the open minded - If you're curious & desire


    "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters"



    By Donald R. Prothero



    http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-What-Fossils-Say-M atters/dp/0231139624#sipbody
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Endless Debate and Debacle  - Circular Arguments
    Atheists, yes, empirically you hold the best cards for proof. Of course it's
    impossible to sway the religious to your viewpoints with logic. Faith exists
    beyond logic. I'm not sure how such strong faith came into being, but I respect
    those that are secure in their beliefs (and are secure enough to allow those
    with dissimilar beliefs to exist in peace).

    Christians, you're faith and knowledge of the Good Book is very impressive and
    envious. Many people out their are unsettled and jealous of your steadfast
    beliefs in the ultimate good of the Christian god. However, I have seen the
    amendments placed upon the Lord's word. I've been to prisons formed in the 19th
    century during England's war with France which "thou Shalt not Kill" was
    changed to "Thou shalt do no murder" to justify the soldier's killing of
    the enemy. The Lord's word is infallible, yet unless we are able to read it as
    it was first wr...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Lowell
    The more reliable manuscripts are accurately translated murder.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio  - Just a side note
    There are issues with reading it as it was first written. The whole concept of a
    virgin birth is not mentioned when you read the New Testament in Hebrew. A
    translation error from Hebrew to Greek changed the word "almah"(young
    woman)to "parthenos" (virgin). It was a change that gave Jesus an even
    greater supernatural element and helped him fit the prophecies of the Old
    Testament.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    What about the old testament prophecies of Jesus' virgin birth? I also doubt
    seriously your interpretation of the Hebrew to Greek translitteration.

    The word socery to me means witch. Yet when it was used it meant something
    completely different. The original word actually means drug maker. It was then
    translitterated to this word, socery. To them what did the word mean? I cannot
    answer it becasue I wasn't there. Nevertheless, the meaning has changed over
    time.

    Faggot means a bundle of sticks. To us it is very different. Queer means odd.
    But to us it is radically different. Niger is the Spanish word for black. To us
    it can mean something drastically different.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Actually Negro is the spanish for black. Niger is the name of a country in
    Africa; it is French. My mistake.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s richrol  - Virgin birth
    The New Testament was first written in Greek (except for possibly Matthew). Even
    if the word virgin wasn't in the New Testament, it would still be obvious that
    Jesus was born of a virgin, since we are told that his mother and Joseph had no
    relations until after He was born (Mat 1:25). Yes, it would say the same thing
    in Hebrew or Greek.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio
    If we go by how the ten commandments were first followed and preached, it is
    clear that there would be even more justification for killing than there already
    is. Jesus wrote the ten commandments only for Jews (During his life he still
    considered himself a Jew). That meant "thou shall not murder [Jews],"
    "thou shall not steal [from Jews]" and so forth.

    Lowell is correct, The Roman Catholic Church uses the translation 'kill'
    instead of 'murder'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Hello  - Helio
    Here is a question related to the Jews. How do you intepret KJV Rom.9:6-8.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Your interpretation is twisted and wrong. Jesus also taught them that they
    failed to teach the world these pricipals. And Yet another reason for Jesus to
    come is to tattoo these pricipals into the hearts of all men so no one is
    without excuse, Jew and gentile.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio  - I should focus better, rather than procrastinating
    Glen I want to apologize. I am speaking out of my field of knowledge & I am
    falling prey to an easy mistake of repeating what I hear without research. Those
    translations come from the context of the bible not directly from modern
    language, but no assertion can be made eitherway
    I was wrong about the 10 commandments. There seems to be more Biblical
    justification that Christians need not follow any Mosaic Laws (10 Commandments)
    Rom. 10:4

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Hello  - Helio
    The focus of the verse below is on righteousness.
    Rom.10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that
    believeth.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Mosaic law
    Helio, There is no biblical justification for Christians to NOT follow Mosaic
    law. This is a misconception. If someone is actually able to follow the law IT
    (the law itself) will become thier righteousness before God. Since no one can
    we need something else. That something else is Jesus of Nazareth. Law is given
    only for the lawless. Those that are not lawless need no law at all. Now
    substitute the word unrighteous for lawless. Those that believe in Jesus are no
    longer under its condemnation because He paid the price. Faith in Jesus Means
    He will extend His righteousness to you. It is called mercy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Who created satan? YES And if it was your god, did said god know the results of

    that creation? YES. And if so, did said god create said satan anyways? YES. IT'S
    CALLED LOVE.

    The robot analogy should be like this:

    If I built a robot that was able to choose between right and not right and sent
    it out into the street and it chose to always do what is not right even after it
    was told the difference what would I be found guilty of?



    The answer is primary vs secondary causality.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I meant for the first YES to be GOD made an error,,,,,,,,,soory.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s CHar  - Intolerance
    Yes, actually Christians should be very intolerant as well. We are intolerant
    of the lies and manipulations of the devil. But we don't hate the people that
    are being controlled by him. A person claiming to be Christian should not hate
    any person. Again CHristians are defenders of the truth, lies will not be
    tolerated.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Evidence for my hypothesis that God is real
    Take a look at your 3 children.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Persecution and Intolerance of Christians
    "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye
    were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the
    world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth
    you." -John 15:18,19



    No surprise the Christians are called to do the proving and are mocked, the
    world hates us as they hated Jesus and still do.



    As Christians we must uphold the truths of the Bible, and I remind everyone to
    do it as Jesus would have. We must love our enemies at all cost for we are
    commanded to do so, even if we are spit on and riciculed. Let the Holy Spirit
    work in us so that we may not look like hypocrites to the world. It's tough I
    know. But let us be looked upon as the light, not as the darkness in this
    temporal world.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - dust of the ground
    That is why when we die our physical bodies return back to our original form,
    dust.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Science and Hypothesis
    I'm not the smartest person but I have done years in college... You said your
    "hypothesis" was that there is no God. Then you proceeded to say that
    WE need to prove YOUR hypothesis "prove you wrong". It is your
    hypothesis, you prove it! Imagine in my 9th grade bio class, my teacher saying
    "Ok class come up with a hypothesis so that I may disprove it!" The
    burden on proof is on you! I'm sure many here have and Einstein have given you
    many thoughts to ponder on whether there is a possibility of God, yet you taunt
    us like a child. It's like a child sitting on his father's lap slapping him in
    the face. Shoot maybe you are God? Seems like your hypothesis has just become
    law since we have to prove YOU wrong. Its silly dude and quite intolerant.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - YOU demand...
    ...proof of evolution from me! YOU continually assert there is a deity to me!
    Try this; your hypothesis is that there is a god. YOU prove it!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - again with proof
    Okay antitheist, proove to me that sound waves exist.

    There is your challenge! You play guitar, proove to me that it makes sound
    waves.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Easy.
    What we call 'sound waves' are the compression of fluids. Those fluids, most
    often we deal in air, though it may be other fluids, cause pressure variations
    which strike our tympanic membranes, moving sensors on the cocclea.



    To prove they exist, we create them. All sound waves are caused by a movement
    in a fluid. Push your hand through some water in your bathtub. The movement on
    the surface that you see there is a sound wave.



    However, if you want to deny everything, you could go with the philosophy of
    Descarte who, in the famous thought experiment where he attempted to live ONLY
    by things he could prove absolutely, was finally reduced to utter inactivity,
    left with only one thing he knew for sure;



    "I think, therefore I am."
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Okay..
    So you have used words to describe the idea. And an illitration using water in
    a tube demonstrating only that you can make water form a wave but you have not
    demonstrated a wave moving in this mystical AIR that you have postulated. You
    say sound is made by fluids. There are no fluids in the AIR again that you
    postulate.

    You did say something about pressure variations. Interesting can you show them
    to me? And somethng about our ears being required to sense them. So they do
    exist becuase we can observe secondary functions. In other words how they
    interact with other matter.

    cheers
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - So...
    ...You wish me to define every individual word?



    Again, back to Descarte;



    During his thought experiment, mentioned above, he decided that he could not
    trust any of his senses, because he couldn't prove that there wasn't a demon in
    his head that was forcing him to think reality was what he could observe, rather
    than a REAL reality that the demon didn't want him to see. Have YOU got demons?
    Can you prove that you don't?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Every single word
    No I don't. I wish for you to think. Therefore I am going to cut to the chase
    and answer the questions for you. There is no way, no techknowlegey, nothing on
    the face of this planet than you can use to show me a sound wave in motion
    through the air. The only thing science can do is allegorically tie together
    waves seen in water or another liquid to explain sound waves moving in the air
    which is not liquid. There is one thing that might be used in an attenmpt to
    demonstrate sound moving in the air. This is commonly known as a sonic boom.
    With an aircraft it is too small but with very large explosions one can readily
    see a vaporous sphere rapidly expand from the center of the blast. It can only
    go so far then it collapses on itself. Yet sound continues to move outward
    apart from the condensate seen before.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - And yet...
    ...we can create a soundwave, measure it's properties, and use that knowledge in
    a practicle way.



    God...well...I guess we've tried to do the same thing. And failed in all three.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Again a secondary observation to demonsrtate that which cannot be seen. The
    measuring of propertise idea. You still have not shown me a sound wave, only a
    secondary device used to observe the sound wave.

    As far as observing God using secondary measures...you still are closed to the
    fact and observance that everything around you in the sky, space and under the
    Earth were made by Him and they give witness to Him.

    Your failure is in the observation.

    People like me are able to recognize God and use His love in a very practical
    way. Your inabiblity to recognize that is your problem.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio  - Ignorant of science and history
    This is just 1 big Red Haring because soundwaves are observed and have been
    proved. Religion is NOT a theory because it is not vulnerable to being
    disproved. Evolution is vulnerable but has never been disproved. 1 rabbit found
    in the Precambrian would send all biologist spinning but out of the thousands of
    fossils, not one has been found the contradicts the theory of evolution.
    Evolution isbacked by towering stacks of scientific evidence, that is why it
    gets the privilege of "prove it wrong," and religion still lives within
    the "prove it right" category
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Chris  - Oh, come on.
    If you really must demand visual evidence for sound waves, all it takes is a
    two-second Google search.

    http://www.vfa32.navy.mil/pics/f14vf32%20sound%20b arrier%20side.jpg
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Chris
    Copied and pasted your site and it would not load. Error page not found. So I
    was unable to see this evidence can you check the site and/or give a better
    explanation as to how it is better seen?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    So I just did a quick search for "sound barrier" and was immidiately
    show this "vapor cone". I guessing this it what you are refering to.
    This is nothing more than water vapor being squezed out of the air and is only
    in existance for a fleeting moment and goes only a fet feet from the aircraft.
    The sound wave is in existance apart from this phenomenon. 1) the cone does no
    travel to my ear, 2) the cone exists for only a short time while the craft is
    passing the sound barrier. then it is gone while the sound wave continues to
    propagate. The propagation has not been shown or demonstrated.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    The neet thing about shock waves is that they also happen in space. There is
    absolutely no medium to carry sound there yet the shock waves still occur;
    supernovea and other explosions. A vapor cone is nothing more thatn a slowly
    manefesting shock wave.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio  - Shock waves in space
    @Glen: A shockwave as we think of it on earth does not happen in space. On
    Earth, we usually feel the intense compression wave from an explosion. It is a
    sound wave that is strong
    enough that not only does our ear drum sense it, but we can feel it with our
    skin. In space there is nothing to compress so a traditional "shock
    wave" would not travel. There are things you could feel however, such as
    photons and other particles but no sound waves.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Proooooooove
    Proooooove(for Deb)I love creative writting!

    Antitheist, my point is this. Sound is just as invisible as God chooses to be.
    Sound can only be observed by secondary causes; no matter what device you make
    to observe it the device is a secondary interaction that allows you to observe
    it.

    Creation is one of the secondary interactions.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave aka lambsev  - De cart before de horse
    "I think, therefore I am." ?????



    This cannot be.



    I am, therefore I think.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Deb
    It's spelled P R O V E.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Not if you are emphasizing the oooooooooo. Deb really try to ease up on the
    pedantacism.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Where I stand
    You asked where I stand? What trips me out about this type of debate is the
    blatant blind eye to the obvious. You and many others in the "liberal
    society"like to think you are better people without "religion"
    because you love to preach "tolerance". So why is it that we are in
    court for crosses that have been sitting on a mountain for decades, nativity
    scenes, and pro-life commercials. Don't you get it? Yeah whatever, Christmas
    shoved down your throat, blah, blah, blah. Everyone hates Christians now because
    WE are INTOLERANT? All my peers, are on facebook saying "I am not into
    organized religion", so cliche dude. Sucks because most are Filipino or
    Mexican who came from Roman Catholic upbringings. That is why I detest the Roman
    Catholic religion.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Intolerance...
    Look at what you wrote! You wrote that people who weren't Christian should go
    to other countries.

    YOU write about detesting Catholics!

    YOU write about how my very existance is "evil!"



    YOU are writing straight hatred. Shame on you. I thought you were better than
    that.



    I'm done speaking to you, until you wake up and realise just what kind of
    attitude you are presenting, all the while claiming to be 'saved.'



    I wouldn't be so sure, if I were you.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Time and time Again
    I have preached love your enemies. I don't HATE Catholic people and I
    definitely don't HATE atheist people not even you. I HATE THE DEVIL! I hate
    the lies that he has spread throughout the world about Jesus, and I hate that
    the devil has the audacity to infiltrate Christian websites where people are
    trying to fellowship together to overcome being slaves of sin and are trying to
    become better slaves of righteousness. I don't care if you don't talk to me
    anymore. That just means the TRUTH has been delivered.



    You don't know what SAVED is to tell me I am not worthy of claiming to be saved!
    If you want to know the truth about salvation then check this out. And give me a
    book report on it

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-224



    People here speak to you because Jesus commands us to. Silence, is actually what
    the people of this world would give you and say you deserve.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Cliche but...
    The truth hurts. But the truth will set you free.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Good girl CHAR
    Keep on him CHAR!! Good girl!

    It is interesting how the word Evil is so perversely understood these daze.
    Evil is nothing more than the abscence of God. A-1 you are the very thesis of
    evil. You deny God at every step placing you firmly into the evil category.
    Now that does not mean you go about and do bad things to all people. It does
    mean you don't have nor do you acknowledge God. And evil has you bound up for
    His peasure.

    Calling someone out on thier evil is not hate speech. It is acknowledging just
    what you vehemently state; there is no God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - Did I misunderstand?
    Calling someone out on their evil is acknowledging there is no God?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Yes Donna you misunderstood. I try to fit too much into the small dialogue
    boxes here. so it is better for me to say this..."It is acknowledging just
    what you vehemently state. A-1 you continually state that there is no God."

    So I am saying that calling A-1 out as evil is stating only what he states, that
    there is no God.

    Even his surname is against God; anti-theist. See? I acknowledge what A-1
    acknowledges, that he is evil as a direct result of his statement of there is no
    God. Does that help?

    BTW: I beleive there is a God and He manefested Himself in the flesh of humans
    to destroy the power of Satan over humans. He is Jesus of Nazareth.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - Now I understand.
    I have read some of the dialogue on this site. It appears the anti-theist has
    passed judgment on God. He does not believe in the goodness of God, nor is he
    thankful for all he continually receives from God. His attitude toward God is
    wrong.
    For the record, I share the same belief in Jesus.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Donna
    Praise God Sister! It is only by His choice.



    I agree with you about A-1 but remember it is by satan's delusion that he is
    wrong. I wish it could be broken.

    I used to be like A-1, passing judgement. I'd say things like, "If I was
    God that would never happen.". Or "If I could be God for just one
    day.". Etc.... It wasn't until I accepted Jesus that I saw how wicked those
    thoughts are.

    Carry on Donna. Stay hidden in Christ!

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - I can relate.
    I did not grow up in a Christian home. I married into a Christian family that
    encouraged me and my husband to attend church. Within 14 months of marriage, I
    received Jesus as Lord and Savior and was taught the importance of prayer, Bible
    study, and church attendance. I had never read the Bible until my Mother-in-law
    gave me one, with my name on it, as a one year anniversary gift. I was
    determined to
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - I can relate.
    I was determined to
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - My personal testimony
    I was determined to do my part and study the Bible. It convicted me, which I
    mistook for condemnation. It also aroused anger in me because of my view of His
    judgments. As I read Rom.9:10-23 I struggled with doubt, insecurity, and a fear
    of rejection. I was focused mostly on my shortcomings, failures, and
    imperfections. A sense of hopelessness overwhelmed me as I put trust in my
    ability and knowledge rather than God. At that time, I failed to comprehend what
    the finished work of Jesus Christ meant to me as a believer. I also failed to
    recognize the faithfulness of God and His word. This year it will be 20 years
    since Jesus came into my life. In His word, He has promised to never leave me
    nor forsake me. Now I have no doubt He has kept His word and that His Spirit is
    at work to bring me to spiritual maturity. I have hope for everything,
    everyday, and everyone because of His faithfulness, mercy, love, wisdom, and
    power. I am ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - My personal testimony
    I am so thankful for all the people who set a good example of a Christian life
    and expressed God
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Amen! Isn't liberty great?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - A small gift...
    www.bibledex.com

    This is a website put out by the University of Nottingham, containing a video
    for each of the books of the bible (ongoing, though their chemistry and physics
    sites are complete, and worth looking at, too!) with commentary from some of the
    foremost bible scholars working today.

    It DOES NOT support my viewpoint, but neither does it support the creationist
    view. What it does is lay out the best knowledge we have available at this
    time, in as unbiased a manner as possible. I'm finding it interesting, I hope
    you do too!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Evolution questions- simple minded me
    So when is the primate going to realize that it will one day become a human,
    with bills to pay?

    What are my great great great great great great great great grandchildren going
    to look like?

    Are you more evolved than me? Is my daughter more evolved than me? Is my great
    great great great great times a billion of years grandchild more evolved than
    me?

    Am I more evolved than my great great great great great great great
    grandparents?

    Will we one day not be on top of the food chain?

    Are primates just below us in the food chain?

    Do feelings evolve?

    My prof said elephants and primates have feelings, thats cool. Will they one day
    evolve to tell me about them?

    Am I ignorant for asking these questions?

    Isn't it cool that I can actually ask them and get an answer and be satisfied.

    Am I just an arrogant despotic human, who chooses to reign over all animals and
    dehumanize them?



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Evolution of answers...
    You know, a physicist did a sort of 'back of the envelope' calculation on how
    much energy our complexity takes. He measured in Ergs/gram, but the trend is
    really what's important here;

    The sun uses 2. A chimp uses 800. A bronze-age farmer uses 12,000. You and me
    us 150,000.

    Currently, humans seem to have stopped evolving physically for the most part,
    and are instead evolving the things around us to suit our needs.

    As to how animals tell us about thier feelings, maybe we aren't listening
    closely enough. Elephants mourn thier dead, and seek redress for wrongs.
    Dolphins can be quite lethal, but have never once attacked a human, and have in
    fact saved many a drowning swimmer.

    There are no stupid questions.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - Seek the truth
    I agree, there are no stupid questions that come from a lack of knowledge.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Progeny
    As to what your ancestors look like, and what your future offspring will look
    like, all I can say is look at the trends. On average, people are about a foot
    taller than they used to be, even 500 years ago. Some scholars think this may
    have to do with dietary improvements, but the change has occured. We're living
    longer, on average, than ever before, roughly double to triple what our
    ancestors lived (Early Romans rarely reached 30, by the 1600s, Japanese life
    expectancy was 50-60, now we're pushing an average of 80).

    I predict, and this is only a prediction, that we may grow taller still, live
    longer, and will continue to control ever more energy.

    If we can ever stop eating so much junk food, that is!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - life expectancy
    I do not know anyone in my immediate vicinity who will live to be 80. Everyone
    smokes, nobody exercises at the gym or does heavy labor, nobody eats fruits and
    vegetables, nobody takes their cod liver oil, and everybody has an STD.
    Technology and early detection has pushed us to live longer. If anything we are
    de-evolving, nobody listens to grandma's advice anymore.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - BUT
    Noone mixes lead into thier wine as a sweetener (Ancient Rome), tosses
    themselves on thier husband's funeral pyre (Sa-ti, India), leaves all thier
    clothing with thier families and goes for a walk in the middle of winter (Inuit
    30th birthday tradition), or uses cocaine as a cough medicine (USA, 1800s).

    All that stuff you listed is stuff we KNOW we should do, and I'm becoming rather
    convinced that it's mostly us North Americans who don't do it (maybe we think
    we're invincible?). For the record, my grandfather is 98, my grandmother is 90.
    And that's just on my Dad's side.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - But...
    Nobody does what they should do because it is the sign of the times, good is
    evil, evil is good, bitter is sweet, sweet is bitter.



    Hindu's still marry their kids at 7 years old. (watched Nat Geo) Why don't
    North Americans care about that kind of religious stuff going on in the world?
    I mean cmon, we are paying taxes for lawsuits about navity scenes during
    Christmas? The way I see it, was not America as we know it founded as a
    Christian nation? Yeah I know, Mexicans and Natives were here and all that...
    But isn't China a Buddhist nation, or India a Hindu nation, or middle Eastern
    countries Islamic? If you are Buddhist,Hindu, or Islamic wouldn't it make sense
    to move to those countries? Maybe the entitlements are just to great too get
    leave.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I tried...
    ...to move to Japan. The 'elite' of the system has decided that Japanese people
    are somehow better than the rest of the world, and must be kept 'pure.' No
    surprise. Even here in Canada, the Mohawk nation has just signed and delivered
    eviction notices for the some 26-odd non-natives who are married to Mohawks on
    the reserves.

    USA was founded as a direct counter to religiously organized society.
    Non-secular. Until Pat Robertson.

    China is not Buddhist. It WAS Confucianist, which is more of a philosophy than
    a religion.



    Now, are you seriously advocating the political stance of, "Believe in
    Jesus, or GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!" ? Is that really where you stand?



    I suggest YOU move to the Vatican.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Pilgrims- The Mayflower
    Besides that fact that "pilgrims" eventually dominated over the Natives
    of America. Were the pilgrims not called Puritans in history books? Shoot I
    kinda remember my social studies books talking about puritans, I wonder if they
    still do today. I know you like questionable websites, and wikipedia gives you
    a quick look at what Puritanism was/is. Unfortunately for the Natives, America
    eventually got colonized by the Euros. If I were a real American I should feel
    bad right? I guess I should really move outta here if I am a true Christian who
    condemns the killing of Native Americans. Well I hope you get it.



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - I am researching...
    our topic on Moses...but I came across some interesting info I had forgotten
    about the beginnings and evolution.
    I had forgotten about the Cambrian explosion, a proverbial thorn in the side of
    evolution. Even Dawkins admits it is hard to explain, especially in light of no
    lower life forms found in pre-Cambrian strata. Then there is the nasty little
    chestnut of lower life forms being found in higher strata and vice versa.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hehe..
    Tough, isn't it? Hard to explain, eh?



    Common evolutionary theory goes on this view; where there is energy to spare,
    SOMETHING will find a way to use it! And when there is energy to spare, MANY
    things will compete for it. Those explosions are not so uncommon as you think;
    every species must occupy only one niche, or compete to the death with any other
    species that is there.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Food Chains...
    This is another misnomer. Think more along the lines of a 'food ring.' Animals
    eat plants, those animals are eaten by other animals, which are eaten by insects
    and bacteria, which are broken down into soil to be used again by plants. It
    would be a perpetual motion, except that plants absorb extra sunlight into the
    mix to keep the cycle going.

    Think you're the top of the food chain? Think again! You're actually not even
    mostly human! Bacteria in your body outnumbers your own cells 7 to 1. And even
    those cells that ARE you are mostly plain old water.

    Make no mistake, we live because bacteria find it convenient to allow us to do
    so. And here's another one to think of; you're 27, right? That means that
    every cell you have has been replaced. 4 times over. You aren't even you!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Humans are just big juicy watermelons
    True about bacteria and water. Proof that my God just performed another
    miracle. He turned liquid water into life. Oh wait, He is the living water.
    John 5:10 :)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - actually...
    it was said in Genesis that we're made of clay...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Almost..
    Ommission is in the air.

    Clay or dirt was used to form the body but nothing at all was going on with said
    dirt until God breathed LIFE into it. ANd therefore both dirt and spirit formed
    the man. NOT just clay.

    And that is the rest of the story.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - School/College Evolution Indoctrination
    Antitheist

    You mentioned you were taking a psych class this semester. So am I.
    Interesting in that I am back to school after 5 years after I obtained my BS
    degree. What is more interesting is my new awareness of "scientific"
    information and information in general that is given by the professors, who at
    one time I thought were supposed to be infallible in their knowledge. Since I am
    a Christian now, it seems so obvious that they have always pushed evolution and
    laughed at creation "theory". I used to believe everything the prof
    said. Now I dont. But you know so many people still do.



    Like do you honestly believe in Freudian "theories"? Cmon, penis envy
    and penis castration? Even my liberal female psych prof rolled her eyes, saying
    they used to believe all that and all of that was questionable.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Freud...
    ...I would recommend that you actually read his work. He was actively searching
    for a hidden cause in people's actions, and in Victorian times, nothing seemed
    to be more deeply and stubbornly hidden than sex.

    He was wrong, ultimately, about a great many things, but his real contribution
    was to start people thinking about cause/effect in psychology, and to provide
    some way of classifying the complex workings the mind.

    And it IS one of the key components of science that even the great thinkers can
    be proven wrong. This is much harder in religion, I think.

    For example, was Jesus a carpenter? The word used, 'tekton' could be carpenter.
    Could also be build-master, Archetect, craftsman, or even educated man. He
    could well have been a librarian, by the original language...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Could be, could be, could be.

    Amazing how the darkness plays a game to attempt to question who Jesus is and
    who He was while in the flesh. In fact, darkness questioned Jesus to His face,
    "If you are the son of man...".

    Couldbe, could be, could be.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - I was offended today...
    I was offended today in my Developmental Psychology class. We are at the
    beginning of the semester studying child development. Today the professor
    showed a video on physical development in the toddler years. The video said,
    toddlers love to climb on things as do our tree dwelling primate ancestors. I
    chuckled and shook my head as everyone agreed. Anthitheist talks about
    Christian indoctrination in schools, where? I can't find it. All I see is
    evolution theory indoctrination. I will never and have never come across a
    creationist professor. Are creationists just not intelligent enough to be
    college professors?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Indoctrination...
    The teaching of creationism in schools is illegal in public school systems.
    This has NOT been the case for long! I remember being forced to recite the
    lord's prayer in school, celebrate Christmas (NOT anywhere in the bible at
    all!), St. Valentine's day, St. Patrick's day, All Hallow's eve, Thanksgiving.
    You claim your religious beliefs are not in schools? Really? Were you ever
    forced to observe Ramadan, or Day of Atonement (IN the bible), or the Pagan
    Winter solstice orgy?

    Which religion is in our schools, on our TVs, and in our law books?

    We do come from primates, of the genera Homonine, of which we are the only
    surviving example. But you also come from your mother.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - School Holidays
    I don't recall being forced to celebrate any of those Christian and non
    Christian holidays. Nor do I recall any of my classmates who have different
    religious backgrounds being forced to do anything. My dad hasnt celebrated
    Christmas and Easter for the past 5 years since he converted to his girlfriend's
    religious cult. He is not forced to take a Christmas vacation. Yet he could
    party hardy in Vegas on his birthday.



    I'm glad you realized that Christian virtues are in our law books.America WAS
    once one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Now
    progressives want to change that, and it is blatantly obvious that America is
    all effed up because we have veered away from that. Effin Oprah, progressives,
    and postmoderns are screwing the minds of those who once knew the TRUTH,
    defended the TRUTH, and loved the TRUTH.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Laws...
    The USA was founded by people who wanted to separate church and state. In fact,
    a large part of it was trying to get OUT of the religious wars going on between
    Catholics and Protestants.

    Yes, I would take religious laws off the books in thier entirety. If it were up
    to me, laws would not reflect any religion's convictions whatsoever, but be
    agreeable to any religion, within reason. I would put it on people who wanted
    to live by further religious laws to do so themselves, and not force others into
    it.

    I guess I would start by asking where the harm comes from in breaking law X, and
    if no demonstrable harm could be shown, the law would have to go. I don't think
    the law has ANY place in my bedroom (so long as noone gets hurt) and I shouldn't
    be able to invoke X belief to break the law, either.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Anonymous
    The major problem with anti's theory here is man is getting more and more
    wicked. It ia also know as progressive. See once a law is passed saying no
    don't do this another group gets offended and sets out to undo the law. After a
    while they convince enough people to re-write the law so that it includes said
    offended group. This goes on ad infinitum until the law is no longer a law.

    What God has done with LAW is make it permanent and unchangible. no dilution.
    And He sees to it that it is enforced regardless of prosecution or capture. It
    is impossible to remove God from the very thing He made; namely the law.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Professional Ministries
    www.cbmc.com


    worksofpowerinc.org



    I,m sure this is just the tip of the iceberg!

    There must be college professers who believe in God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - There are indeed many!
    However, I think that at that level of education, professors realize and agree
    with the idea that we must teach what we can actually observe. When we can
    observe a deity, I'll teach it myself!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Cal Meyers  - What the birds think
    If the theory of evolution is true; that random chance and long periods of time
    produced order from chaos, it should be observable and repeatable, so let's try
    this: Take a canvas, prop it against a statue in your town square, and see how
    long it takes pidgeons to paint a masterpiece. Oops, looks like they can only
    paint in black and white, and what I see taking shape isn't a painting at all!!
    It looks just like a bird's opinion of the theory of evolution!!!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Or...
    ...you could take a bunch of ammonia, sulpher, and nitrogen in an airless flask,
    pressurize it, and jolt it with a low level of electricity, and stand back for a
    few weeks.



    OOPS! It forms amino acids! Just like that! All by itself!

    Apply a surplus of energy to a closed system, and it's level of complexity must
    increase to remain stable.

    Hope you aren't still holding onto that canvas.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Antitheist debunks evolution!
    You instructed a person to create a closed system containing specific elements
    in an airless flask, to pressurize it and jolt it with low level electricity.
    Yes, this is an intelligently designed controlled reaction. If the person
    producing this chemical reaction fails to follow the specific steps required,
    then the creation of the amino acids will fail. However, the point is you told
    the person to how to create the reaction. So, you contradicted your statement
    that the reaction occurs all by itself as it requires the human to create the
    conditions. Nothing can be recreatable that was not first creatable. And, just
    as it takes an intelligent mind to create and observe, and intelligent designer
    created the physical laws with which he governs the universe. Thanks for making
    the point for creation.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nooooo
    Actually what I just told you about was a simulation of the condition of the
    plantet you live on as scientists speculated it was around 4 billion years ago.
    They guessed that if they were right, those condidtions would cause the
    formation of biological molecules. They did.

    Hey, Christian; There is no God. This is my hypothesis, scientifically, and all
    you need to do now is PROVE ME WRONG!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ape-like Ancestor  - Burden of Proof
    You said, " There is no God. This is my hypothesis, scientifically, and all
    you need to do now is PROVE ME WRONG!"

    The scientific method does not require us to prove your hypothesis wrong.
    Instead you must prove your own hypothesis. It appears your hypothesis requires
    a myriad of proof. Therefore, it is not an actual hypothesis, but merely a
    stated opinion. Under the proper methodology, the burden of proof falls on you.
    Once something becomes scientific law, it can be presented as fact. That is why
    Darwin's theory is not taught as scientific law. It is not proven. Incidentally,
    I find it interesting that atheists believe that proving natural selection and
    evolution rules out the existence of the Creator or Supreme Being we usually
    call God. Even the agnostic is withholding judgment on the existence of God
    until they have the evidence they desire. As of 2005 (most recent data),
    approximately 88 percent of the world...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ape-like Ancestor  - Burden of Proof cont'd
    As of 2005 (most recent data), approximately 88 percent of the world's
    population were said to "believe in God" (Cambridge University). This is
    down from 96 percent in 2000. In the United States, 95 percent of the population
    "believe in God." This means that approximately 6 billion people in the
    world believe in the existence of God. You atheists have your work cut out for
    you. Convincing the world you are right is nearly the equivalent of dyeing the
    oceans red using droppers

    rs of food coloring. I
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Drip, drip, drop...
    From the data you provided, we have about 30 years to go before religion is
    erradicated entirely.



    You theists had better come up with some convincing evidence before then.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    It is not the job as a theist to provide you with said infomation but the job of
    God Himself. Which He has done abundantly; even taking on the form of His
    created man, completely.

    The problem is not one of providing the aforementioned proof. It is one of
    acceptance of given evidence.

    If the evidence is insufficient for you that is your problem. And it will lead
    you to destruction.

    Consider yourself tackled and removed from the house. Only to get back up and
    run back inside.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Scientific Method
    ...is something you obviously know nothing about. NADA!



    Science cannot disprove a hypothesis, only point to how hard it tried.



    I pose the challenge again; THERE IS NO GOD. Prove me wrong.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Science cannot disprove an hypothesis? Did science disprove the hypothesis that
    the world was flat? Or was that something else? I think you are wrong in the
    statement about science disproving hypotheses wrong.

    Again, did science diprove the hyposesis that the Earth was at the center of the
    universe?

    Again, did science disprove the hypothesis that the Sun revolved around the
    Earth?

    Again, did science disprove the theory that Humans were created by God?

    Now my turn to challenge you. There is a God you prove me wrong. There and I did
    not even have to scream.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Anonymous  - science definititon
    If science must be repeatable, observbable, and falsifiable .. what part of
    macro-evolution does this difinition fit? After 150 years there are no
    transitional forms, nor any data past nor present standing in evidence of the
    claim?



    Where do I misunderstand?



    Respectfully,



    Ken
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Macro-evolution
    I don't know where this idea came from, other than deliberate misunderstanding,
    along the vane of 'one day a chimp had a baby, and it was the first human.'
    This is simply not true, and it is a distortion of what evolution theorizes.

    Change in species CAN take place fairly rapidly (since trade in ivory began,
    average elephant tusks grow to about 75% of what they used to), but no, there is
    no single 'halfway' fossil. Every individual IS 'transitional.'

    IF evolution is real, then we would expect to find gradual progression,
    differentiation among isolated groups, and timelines of millions (if not
    billions) of years. This is exactly what we do find.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hey Char; disproof of the pope!
    Sometimes, when we look at some things a bit differently, we see things that
    should have been obvious. Here's a prime example, and proof that Catholicism is
    indeed NOT Christian. Not. One. Bit. (Best Joker voice)



    http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/rel igion2.html



    I love how this guy works; he doesn't give you all the answers, but he has no
    problem telling people where to start looking. Lotsa stuff worth looking into.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Do you see what I see?
    SNOWFALL!!!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - In Canada, we see...
    SMUD! The unique combination of snow and salt and sand our roadways people have
    us drive on all winter. Tip; don't wear your wingtips!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Christian; re: CARM
    Well, it appears that CARM has accepted my request for a dialogue, and there is
    a possibility that it will be published by them, and myself. The details need
    to be worked out, but I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to share the discussion
    with you, and anyone else who is interested (I'm thinking I might set up a blog,
    or something; ideas?). Again, anyone who wishes can drop me a line at
    ceevro@gmail.com, just use my cognomen in the subject, to make sure you
    separated from the spam, and I'll CC the dialogue to you.

    Hey, this may be a really good way to promote a better understanding, so thanks
    for bringing CARM to my attention!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Awesome!
    Earlier today I read two such dialogues. I thought that CARM would be the
    perfect site for you to express your thoughts. I actually hoped that you would
    attempt to start a dialogue with Matt Slick! Thank you for letting me know.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - In all fairness...
    ...it's now YOUR turn! Here's a research site for you to look into, Christian!



    http://www.christianism.com/



    Go hard on your end! Have fun, and learn.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - your point of view cont'd
    Basically I have a basic concept of a lot of sciences. So I go on the internet
    and look at both sides, yours and mine. Obviously you are conviced with
    Darmwinism I am not. The biggest thing that convices me, is when an Atheist
    scientist after too many years of grueling research, comes to the conclusion
    that all this life, cells, mitochondria,ribosomes, lysosomes, mRNA,tRNA,
    rRNA,bacteria, bacterial flagella, dna, atoms, mountains, rivers, valleys,is
    just too complicated for it to have started from nothing. I can't get into the
    nitty gritty of science with you, but to me it is common sense. These
    scientists are brilliant including Einstein, in the end they didnt necessarily
    believe in the Christian God, but they ended up believing that there had to be a
    creator.

    You are right we should be allowed to see both sides. I think Darwinism is here
    to stay.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Complexity;
    You know, I just heard Dr. Veith using the junkyard-tornado-jet argument, and
    that one always frustrates me horribly. I'm going to try my best to set the
    record straight here.

    1. The argument always seems to start with something incredibly evolved, such as
    a eukaryotic cell. On the evolutionary timeline, that type of cell is closer to
    us than to the first life-forms.

    2. No scientist claims it started from nothing. There were billions of tons of
    'stuff' on this planet, and a tremendous amount of energy. Our question is
    really, 'which stuff?'

    3. I don't personally, or know any atheist who does, follow Darwin like some
    sort of leader. I respect his science, and am grateful for the idea, but I'm
    not about to start praying to him, or making 'evolving water' keychains to sell.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Seeing it from your point of view
    I have a combined 7 years of college education so far. I have a BS in
    Kinesiology, pretty much science, and I am currently back to school to pursue my
    nursing degree. I love school too much and I love science. I have sat through a
    lot of biology, anatomy, physiology, earth science, and psychology classes. And
    I have got to tell you, I have noticed all these years that teachers never
    present the other side, my side, creation. Not even in high school, not in the
    texts as even a Theory AT ALL!



    Did you hear that a certain Museum here in the States, Smithsonian related i
    think,refused to play a documentary about creationism, although they had already
    agreed to play it. So they did a last minute pull out basically.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Education
    No, no science classroom should be allowed to teach creationism for the
    following reason;

    Science can only work with observable, recreatable, disprovable events.

    Put another way, I have no problem at all with creationism in schools, but it
    must be taught in it's appropriate heading, Theology. As for now, if
    creationism is scientific, then scientists must demand a theory, which explains
    all the facts known, and can be tested if they are to teach it as science.

    However, I've often heard (even on this blog) that creationists claim their
    deity is outside the realm of science. If that's true, why do you need to put a
    deity in a science class?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - In Him we live, move, and have our being Act.17:24
    Sin has seperated people from God. As a result, God is outside the reach of
    earthly (Jn.3:27-36; 1Cor.15:42-58) people, in every way (Col.1:21
    intellectually, Heb.7:26 physically, Matt.15:8 emotionally, Jude 1:19
    spiritually...). In other words, people do not have the power WITHIN themselves
    to come to God in any way. Jesus is the Only Way to be reconciled to God
    (2Cor.5:17-21). Everyone who turns from unbelief puts faith in the finished Work
    Of Christ (Jn.19:16-30) to save them from sin can know God. (1Cor.1:24) We are
    not outside of HIS reach (Isaiah 59:1-3)!

    Jesus Alone has the Power to reveal God. (The Word Jn.1:1-5,10-14);
    (Jn.5:39-47); (1Cor.2:1-16). It is not a lack of proof that keeps anyone from
    God, it is the sin of rejecting JESUS (Rom.1:16-25)! There comes a point where
    one decides to believe or not. Some are undecided, some believe, and some have
    made up their mind NOT to believe! It is important to know wher...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - In Him...Conclusion
    It is important to know where one stands.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - So in other words...
    ...you seem (in a very roundabout way) to agree that science cannot teach
    religion. We're on the same page here.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Evident Proof He Exists
    Rom.1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
    godlessess and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
    Since What May Be Known About God IS Plain To Them. For Since The Creation Of
    The World GOD'S INVISIBLE QUALITIES-HIS ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE-HAVE
    BEEN CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, SO THAT MEN ARE
    WITHOUT EXCUSE. There is a difference between knowing God exists and KNOWING GOD
    AND THE TRUTH OF HIS WORD! I know over 6 billion exist in the world, but I don't
    KNOW ALL PEOPLE! I must reiterate, it is NOT a lack of proof that keeps a person
    from KNOWING GOD, it is the sin of denying Him, rejecting Him, and rebellion.
    God is good (Mat.19:17), God is Holy (Act.3:14), God is Just (Act.22:14), God is
    Righteous (1Jn.2:1), God is Love (1Jn.4:16), God is Mighty (Isaiah 9:6)... Most
    importantly God is the Law Giver (James 4:12), and Judge (Heb.12:23). HIS WO...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Evident Proof He Exists
    1Pet.1:13-25 HIS WORD ENDURES FOREVER! Anyone who, as an act of their own will,
    denies God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and the Truth of His
    Word does not KNOW GOD! No one knows ALL ABOUT GOD, no more than science knows
    ALL ABOUT HIS CREATION! It is clear that God exists.





    By Him were all things created and by Him all things consist (Col.1:16,17).
    Where would science be with out God?







    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Uh...am I the only...
    ...person here who's finding this hard to read? I love a citation or two, but
    you can't win a debate, or even be understood by the other side if you just
    throw a massive amount of raw data at them with no form. For example, your
    citations at the bottom here have nothing at all to do with the point you were
    trying to make. Like really, nothing. You're again calling down fire and
    brimstone, but then you back it up with a pile of citations from a work that I
    don't find to be infallible, stating that a being which I can't see (and neither
    can you) is a whole pile of qualities I can't verify. Useless.



    To prove a point; the most valuable substance in the universe is unobtainium
    (Avatar, 2009). C'mon; disprove me here!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - God Is Victorious!
    I don't have to win a debate for God. In the end it will be His Word that
    endures. God has the ability to prove Himself. Gravity is an invisible law of
    nature. If a person falls to their death, it is not because there is something
    wrong with gravity. That is just the way it is. God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24)). He
    gave us the law of commandments. Under this law we must be perfect or die. Thats
    just the way it is. God is not wrong.



    Job 40:8 Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify
    yourself?

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - A thought...
    You know, there's a scripture which concludes that anyone who is not 'saved'
    will be destroyed utterly, 'Even their very memory shall be erased.' This says
    to me that not only will those people be eliminated, but it seems that they will
    be made to have never existed at all. If that's the way things are, perhaps the
    only people on earth now are all either saved, or will be saved. Maybe the
    people we see here now are the only ones who 'make it.'



    Again, it's just a thought, but if it were true, how would that change your
    world view?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Eternal Judgment
    For as the Father hath Life IN Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have Life
    IN Himself; and hath given Him authority to execute judgment also because He is
    the Son of Man. Marvel not at this: For the hour is coming , in the which all
    that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth; they that
    have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
    unto the resurrection of damnation (Jn.5:26-29); (Dan.12:1-4); (Rev.20:10-15)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Debate
    No, but you apparently must 'witness' to me. What are you trying to prove? I'm
    duly impressed by your knowledge of how to use a bible concordance, but I'm
    still not seeing your point. Hey, I could quote the Illiad in capital letters
    as well, but would you believe a word I said based on the fact that I claim it's
    true?

    First, the bible IS a historical text. Undisputedly. How accurate it is IS in
    dispute.

    Second, I still have NO evidence AT ALL, not even a SINGLE tidbit, for the
    existance of any deity.

    Third, yes, you ARE trying to win a debate with me, but you are starting by
    claiming victory, even if by proxy.

    Fourth, we can test and observe gravity. Deity? Nope.

    Keep trying, you'll hit an actual point soon I'm sure.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Science puts each and every person that designed, invented or thought up an idea
    into the class room. IN every case a name is associated with the theory being
    taught.

    Why should God be included into the very equations, lines and graphs the
    metabolic pathways and progeny producing mechanisms? Seriously antitheist you
    are tiring. The answer is simple. so very simple. He made them all before each
    and every single human being was able to even dream them up and write them on
    paper. There would be no "science" with the One that created the object
    being studied. Obserd!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - I do the research, Christianity is NOT BLIND FAITH
    That is why I am equally annoyed at Catholics. Catholicism and sacraments of
    Baptism, First, COmmunion, and Confirmation, before adulthood, are all
    deliberate attempts to thwart the adult from reading the Bible and studying it
    after that Confirmation ceremony! They do not want an adult to examine and
    scrutinze the Bible for themselves, because they do not want you to realize that
    salvation does not come from works and paying the Roman Catholic Church to get
    you out of pergatory, but only by God's grace and faith in Jesus, with good
    works being evidence of the fruit of the spirit.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh, don't get me started...
    You'll hear no argument from me on that one. Hey, I'd actually love to exchange
    what I know on the Catholic church sometime.



    Here's a tidbit for you; look up the Bull of Borgia. That oughtta confirm your
    stance on Catholocism!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh,
    ...there is a chapter in Richard Dawkin's book, The God Delusion, in which he
    describes the case of a young Jewish Child, who was baptized by a Catholic
    babysitter because he had a fever, and she thought he might die unbaptized. He
    was 6, she was a pre-teen.

    Based on that, the Pope actually had the boy removed from his home and raised
    Catholic. His parents were forbidden to see him unless they were willing to get
    baptized as well. They refused.

    Am I the only one here who sees utter stubbornness and moronicizm on ALL sides
    of this story?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - By the way;
    I'm glad that there are now some truly intelligent and well-read people on this
    site now talking with me. Yes, we disagree, but there is something to be said
    about this type of exchange;

    Both sides will learn how to much more effectively deal with likely issues
    coming from the other side.

    This is REAL progress! Many here may find my presence here inappropriate, but
    think of what you are LEARNING about what people like myself think! I've
    noticed a signifigant decline in fire-and-brimstone evangelism, and a real
    effort to communicate with me in reasonable, rational terms.

    I call this, somewhat cautiously, the start of a successful dialogue.

    Thanks peoples!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Speaking for myself...
    I am personally glad you have stayed and endured what you have....I am glad to
    continue conversing and I find our discussion equally challenging and
    enlightening.

    You make me challenge and provide evidence for my belief and you don't accept,
    "Because the Bible says so", or, "God says...", you want to know
    more than that...more Christians should be able to explain the why of the what
    they believe.

    I mean not to offend my Christian brothers and sisters, but if I were conversing
    with just them, then it would be okay to use the "Christian speak" and
    use the above mentioned quotes. It is a language we as Christians understand.
    Anti1 claims not to be Christian and is demanding EVIDENCE...an excellent
    challenge and workout for Christians.

    Thank you Anti1. We may hold differing views, but I would still like to call
    you, "friend".

    JUST ME!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - The Bible says so...
    Trust me, I know people don't care when you use that line. I didn't care. I used
    to be an atheist. Again from the way I lived my life, you might as well say
    that I didn't believe in a Creator. Had I known for a fact by the studying of
    the Bible that I was created and loved by God, I probably wouldn't have
    disrespected my life and my Creator as much as I did.



    I have learned everything in my life the hard way. I had to break all ten
    commandments,the literal, even murder and adultery mind you, not just Matthew 5
    standards, for me to realize that what the Bible says is true, Proverbs and
    all.



    Oprah and Eckhart Tolle don't know crap about how to live a fulfilled life. I
    have been there done that with self help BS. IT DOESN'T WORK. My life is not
    perfect now that I am Chrsitian either. It's just a REALLY EFFECTIVE paradigm
    shift in thinking that allows for truly fulfilled living. Love your enemies, as
    G...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Shifts in thinking
    I'm more on you page on that one than you think.

    And no, the Oprah life-style is nothing that I would want to live. My sister
    pretty much does, and the...how to put it...rigid perfection of everything she
    comes into contact with always makes me feel uneasy. Ever been to someone's
    place and thought that a dirty kleenex on the counter would be what it took to
    set you at ease?

    And I've done some reasearch into kinesiology, I use many of it's principles in
    martial arts. Good to hear that you've studied it as well.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Standing on God's Word
    Christian faith is built on the Word of God (Jude 1:17-23; Matt.16:13-20;
    Rom.1:16-23)! We are taught to preach repentance and remission of sins in His
    Name (Mark 16:15-18; Luk.24:44-48). We are also taught to put on and take the
    whole armor of God, including the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God
    (Eph.6:10-20). For instance, Heb.11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of
    things hoped for,THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN."







    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sword of the spirit...
    I've always found that sword thing a bit odd, in a peaceful belief system. BUT
    it seems that there are people who don't think it odd at all.



    www.forceministries.com



    No joke here. These guys combine special forces training with religion. That
    just makes me feel warm all over.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Perception affects interpretation; 1Cor.2:11
    2Cor.10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh; (for
    the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling
    down of strongholds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that
    exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every
    thought to the obedience of Christ... In Matt.26:50-56 Peter cut off the ear
    of a servant of the high preist. He thought he would stand up for Jesus With his
    sword! Jesus corrected Peter in verse 52 "Put your sword back in its place,
    For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on
    my father , and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legion of
    angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen
    this way? Jesus could have fought with His disciples, or with angels, instead He
    chose to surrender to His Father's will for our salvation! Here ar...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Perception affects interpretation;1Cor.2:11 contin
    Here are some scriptures about the Spiritual Sword of the Word; Heb.4:12;
    Rev.1:16, 2:12-16, 19:15-21. Just as Jesus surrendered to God's will and Way of
    Salvation (Luk.22:42), so must anyone who desires to know God. (Jn.14:6-14)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Kung-fu Jesus!
    You know, I've studied martial arts for 20 years now, and I have to remind you
    just exactly what Jesus is said to have done; he took a whip and drove a market
    out of thier selling area, then took up guard duty to make sure they didn't come
    back.

    I want you to consider the magnitude of this feat of martial prowess. First, he
    was in a Roman-controlled province. Romans were well-known for having VERY
    effective infantry around. The way they were armored would have rendered them
    virtually impervious to whips, and they were pretty keen on keeping up the
    trade. Second, most merchants in those days would have been armed, and used to
    people attempting to steal from them. Third, to test how difficult this is,
    walk into a flea market today, take off your belt, and see how far you get.

    Surrender? Nope! Butt-kickin'! Tony Jaa styles!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - So....
    ...the homepage image, the one that Force Ministries wants most to convey, of
    the text, 'Impart Faith In Christ' with a fully-armed, camoflaged soldier
    pointing an assault rifle at the viewer is RIGHTEOUS? Are you kidding me?
    Religion at bayonette point, eh?

    If you endorse this kind of action, I truly do think you have been brainwashed
    beyond any hope of reason!

    BTW; quoting a whole pile of scripture at me does little-I have to be honest and
    remind you that I take it about as seriously as I take the Illiad.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - The Truth Never Changes
    Your response says it all. Perception affects interpretation. JESUS AND HIS
    DISCIPLES DID NOT FIGHT WITH SWORDS!



    I looked into the site in question. Force ministries is a Christ centered
    ministry for the armed forces. The teachings are based on sound doctrine. Anyone
    who actually listens to a sermon will know it does NOT promote violence!



    Thanks for bringing this site to my attention!



    1Tim.6:12 - Fight the GOOD FIGHT of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to
    which you were called when you made your GOOD CONFESSION in the presence of many
    witnesses.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Really?
    I was pretty convinced that the guy pointing a gun at me beside the words,
    'Impart Faith in Christ' sent a pretty strong message.

    Historically, this is pretty much the message that's been passed along. Obey or
    die. Then again, my own study in the martial arts is often seen in tremendously
    wrong light. This is why these dialogues are important.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - bad perception on your part
    yes thanks for leading us to this site, for my husband is in the military. dude
    are you serious? this site is not a kill unbelievers website or association.
    you have got to know better than that. i dont think we have to explain to you
    what it is. if so, i'm over you if you seriously think it was "Religion at
    bayonette point, eh?" wrong wrong wrong. wrong to the point of hilarious.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - AMEN!!! KEEP IT REAL!!!
    When a person seeks to deliberately misrepresent something or someone because of
    an agenda, that person loses all credibility with most people!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - REAL?
    I'm more than willing to look at evidence, but what I saw there was a guy
    pointing a GUN at me! Maybe I'm missing something here (something I am always
    willing to concede) but did you perchance MISS the guy POINTING A GUN AT YOU?

    Let's get a few things straight; I'm all for the military. We need soldiers in
    this world, and I'm grateful to those who step up when needed. Those soldiers
    need help to deal with issues that are stressful in the extreme, and help
    continuing long after thier service is up.

    BUT if you are a Christian, you must remember that Jesus taught PACIFISM.
    Christian just pointed that out (incorrectly, Jesus did indeed call for a VERY
    real sword, and also did a little butt-kicking himself).

    My question is; which side am I to think you're all on? Pacifism, or guns?
    There seems to be evidence for both, and I'm confused.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    The ones that pick up guns are confused too. They actually think God needs them
    to defend Himself. All God needs is His Word.

    It is interesting to me how some people in the Christian walk feel the need to
    protect God from evil. Men have no power at all and think it is our job to
    protect God when in truth it is the other way around. And a gun connot do
    anything to the powers of the one bringing death to us.

    Only the Word can do what they are thinking the gun can do. Specifically
    protect us.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Perception
    I would like you to view the site from my point of view (I know, you've been
    doing your best at that, and I thank you for keeping it up). Imagine the exact
    same site, just replace 'Christ' with 'Muhammed' and tell me how you would view
    it. Seriously.

    You see, Char, to me there is no difference. I mean it; look at that site as
    though you had no idea about religion at all. See the images, read the
    philosophy. Consider what kind of perception a guy like me would have.

    And over me? I didn't think you were ever under me to begin with.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - You have no idea
    Antitheist1- Perception "Look at that site as though you had no idea about
    religion at all. See the images, read the philosophy. Consider what kind of
    perception a guy like me would have."- This is the only accurate statement
    you have made about our Christian faith. We're on the same page here. Yet, you
    claim to have perfect understanding of our "religion". Here are a few
    examples. I will include the headings in capital letters for contextual
    referance. Antitheist1- UNDERSTANDING- "Don't accuse me of not understanding
    your religion on the basis that I don't follow it. I understand quite perfectly
    well." SAYS WHO- "I'm no convert, but I understand it quite well, thank
    you!" WAR AND DIVISION- "Don't worry G-man, I'm gunna keep educating you
    as to what this book that you seem never to have actually read really says."
    AND JESUS SAID;- "I know how to read. I know what "context" is. ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Conclusion-You have no idea
    Antitheist1 -AND JESUS SAID;- "I know how to read. I know what
    "context" is. I also know how to use word play to achieve mischievious
    results."- All subjects (mathematics, science, english...), including the
    Bible, are taught by those who are highly qualified. Spiritually mature
    believers who are open to receive instruction from God (Father, Son, and The
    Holy Spirit) and His Word are the only ones qualified to teach from the Bible.
    You have rejected Jesus. He is the Only One Who can open your Knowledge and
    understanding of His Word. You have a closed mind about the things of God
    (1Cor.2:9-16). You fail to meet the qualifications required to educate on sound
    doctrine. All believers, even teachers and preachers, are students of His word.
    We don't know it all (1Cor.8-13). We are growing in the knowledge, faith, and
    grace of God (2Pet.3:18; Eph.4:13; 2Pet.3:18).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Not knowing
    At least I'm honest about it. I doubt any deity would prefer feigned belief
    over honest skepticism.

    I know what the bible says, I've read it too. I don't believe it, that's the
    'not knowing' you claim I have. What I DO know is that people are killing
    eachother RIGHT NOW over things in that book, and others like it.

    On that knowledge, I have to conclude it's harmful.

    You speak of swords. They cut both ways.

    You wouldn't have to brow-beat me about my damnation if you weren't in doubt of
    your own.

    Preach on. Keep quoting. Take time to ponder what it is that you're saying. I
    don't believe the bible is the unquestionable truth, but there are a lot of
    truths to be found within.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Suffering
    antitheist

    Is your life perfect? You make it seem like you don't yearn for anything, you
    make it seem like you have all you ever wanted in life. I never said that
    atheists did't have enjoyable/fulfilled lives. They do i'm sure, but our
    definitions of enjoyable and fulfilled are as far as east is to west.



    I am glad that you have unlocked the "secret(s)" to a fulfilled life,
    without God. You should be a part of the church of Oprah Winfrey. We will have
    to agree to disagree on whether or not "many roads lead to enjoyment and
    fullfillment." I can't wait until I go to a place where my physical cancer
    and my emotional cancer will be nonexistant for eternity Who are you to take
    that away from anyone?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Cancer
    I don't know a thing about what kind of cancer you have, either physically, or
    emotionally. What's your prognosis? I honestly hope it's good because, despite
    that fact that you get frusterated with me, I find your honesty refreshing, and
    as such, I hold you in higher respect than you might think.

    But here's an analogy on who I am; Because of people like me, who don't accept
    things on faith, the treatment you are likely to recieve for your cancer does
    not include excorcism of your cancer demons. Now we know what cancer is (cells
    that cannot die, yet still reproduce) we have at least a chance of fighting it,
    and we hope to one day be able to stop it before it starts.

    Who are you to take away one very real avenue of hope (science) from your own
    situation?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Here we have to ...
    really try to control the generalizations...I know it is hard with a post of
    unknown limited characters, but not impossible.

    I have to say you are both correct...Char is correct in her belief that her
    cancer will be removed and she will be completely healed one day. Anti1 is
    right in that there are those who have studied science and can combat the here
    and now with medical intervention. That is not to say that she can't be
    completely healed here and now...we all have a burden to bear and must learn
    what Paul learned...His Grace is sufficient.

    That said, Anti1 is correct about doctors and medicine. Yet my contention is
    that not all doctors and medical scientists have rejected faith. Any hypothesis
    is made on faith until the evidence for it is revealed. And...there are
    Christian doctors and scientists...I personally know many...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Well put
    I don't claim at all that every scientist is atheist, but I do have to claim
    that no scientist is allowed to insert a deity as either a cause or a solution
    to an issue. Doing so would effectivly halt any action that could be taken
    on...how to word this...the physical plane of existance.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Cancer
    Well the cancer is in remission. I am not from one of those religious sects
    that does not take treatment, blood transfusions, whatever. The reason I am in
    remission is due to a combination of treatments, radiation, chemo, and probably
    congregations of people including myself praying. I am only 27, God is not done
    with me! I have a purpose to fulfill, and that is to tell the rest of His
    children about his awesome mercy, grace, and love.



    I believe God is in charge of creating and taking life, and when we die we will
    be judged.I don't care if i live or die now, yes i have a family and a young
    daughter, so im not rushing to die! Whereas before I was a Christian, I was so
    scared to die and wanted to live to 100.





    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - The end...
    I'm glad to hear that. While I don't pray, I do offer my own encouragement; the
    worse things get, the better things seem when they get better. Get better!

    As to shifts in belief, I'm also with you on that. I was headed for disaster
    myself (all my fault, I can assure you!) and I really saw no way out. Then I
    was offered a single sentence by a friend, and I'll share it with you: A boat's
    wake does not determine it's direction or destination.

    As for death, no, I don't fear it. I guess I have a vague sense of
    dissapointment, though. I've studied history quite a bit, and I always wonder
    where the story will go from here. Will we meet other civilizations? Learn to
    teleport? And where's my holodeck? There's so much I won't have a chance to
    try, because I was born too soon. Then I remind myself of all the stuff I still
    have to try in THIS time...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - geez #3
    antitheist

    Conversing with you thus far has been rewarding for me, in that I get to teach
    the Gospel and correct people about the Gospel as God has commanded. Although i
    think and probably many others think you are annoying. I try to tell myself
    though that you just don't know better. But just as Glen says, you know, but
    you intentionally reject, to your own demise. We are not trying to convert you.
    We all thought that you just wanted to be more educated about our faith.
    Instead you are that person that comes to divide the flock, Romans 16:17-19.
    Most people here know about your intentions here, and will not be swayed, but
    your presence here is evil, you are praying on naive Christians who are in the
    process of learning the Gospel message, you are the enemy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Evil incarnate, eh?
    You know, we find mosquitos annoying. So what do we do about the annoyance?
    Kill it!

    This is why I talk about your message, and send out other ways to think to
    people who might be reading.

    If your message is so good, why would you need to make me the enemy? I don't
    hate you at all! I have no desire to destroy your life, or fight with you! On
    the contrary, I hope to find a way to make peace between us, so we can be
    friends!

    What is so fearful about and atheist offering a different view, especially on a
    site that very definitely offers views on atheists? Would you deny us our say?

    Ray Comfort has specifically stated that no atheist should be considered for
    public office, because we're all not smart enough to convert, so we're too dumb
    to lead.

    He wishes to shut us up, or convert us.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Karen  - Response to antitheist
    Have you read the Bible? Romans 10:17 'Faith comes from hearing the message,
    and the message is heard through the word of Christ.'



    Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but
    the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: GOD GAVE THEM A
    SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES SO THAT THEY COULD NOT SEE AND EARS SO THAT THEY COULD
    NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY."



    Does this describe you?





    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Of course...
    ...stupor.



    How classy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Geez cont'd
    antitheist

    ... Why is it that you are not here with a humble heart to learn about the Bible
    and the Gospel of Jesus? You are adamate about about disproving the
    "goodness" of the faith amongst people who are all on the same page
    about the Bible message. It is truly you that doesn't get it, why, because you
    don't believe in God. But since you have been here this long debating, it seems
    like you are still searching to find the answer. You are way too passionate
    about disproving it, thus it seems like you fear it. You fear reaching your
    full potential as God's creation. You fear having to glorify something other
    than yourself.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Answers...
    ...Yes, I've been looking for answers. I've been asking for them. When I get
    them, I try them out.

    So far, the only answer that I've really gotten here is that I have to believe
    harder, and that I should NEVER question that answer. This answer is given on
    the basis that something I can't check out will send me to one of two places I
    can't see.

    Give me something I can actually act on, with a discernable result! This is not
    fear, but testing ideas.

    I contend that most of the people here are the ones who are afraid to look at
    things in a different way. This is not surprizing to me, but disheartening.
    Please, go ahead and tell me that red-shift doesn't prove the universe is older
    than 6,000 years, but until you offer a better proof of age, I have to go on
    what I can see and test.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Okay...Answers...
    I, like you, searched for answers...like you, I am not unintelligent...so, I
    would not go to a biologist with a question about architecture. I sought
    sources and experts on topics...here is a small list of authors, and books that
    I found helpful:

    Josh McDowell: Evidence that Demands a Verdict
    Norman Geisler: Christian Apologetics, and any other book written by him (I
    Don't Have Enough Faith to be and Atheist is another one)
    J.P. Moreland: Anything by him
    Ray Comfort:Hell's Best Kept Secret (and others)
    Ken Hamm:The Answers Book (1 and 2), The Great Dinosaur Mystery Solved
    Bob Cornuke:In Search of the Mountain of God
    Lee Strobel: Case for Faith, Case for Christ, Case for a Creator

    All of these people (I did not intentionally exclude women here) are considered
    experts in their fields by Christians and secularists...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Answers continued...
    Josh McDowell: Law undergrad, Masters of Divinity (former atheist)
    Bob Cornuke: PhD
    Norman Geisler: PhD
    J.P Moreland: PhD
    Ken Hamm: Environmental Biology undergrad, Teaching certificate (Australian
    Universities)
    Lee Strobel: Journalism undergrad, Master of Law Studies, professional
    journalist (former atheist)
    Ray Comfort:Author of over 40 books, evangelist, and former atheist.

    I hope this is everyone I listed before...my computer updated and restarted. If
    I missed anyone, I will post their "credentials" later.

    It's hard to say where to start. McDowell answers history and histiography;
    Moreland is awesome in philosophy; Geisler will provide excellent logic; Hamm
    gives you the biology; Strobel takes you on the journey he took and reveals his
    conversations with real scientists! Cornuke covers archeology. And, Comfort hits
    you with morality! So, you know my starting line-up...Amazingly, these...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I think that I shall start...
    ...with McDowell. I've got a fairly broad understanding of history (if you're
    going to teach any martial art, understanding the history behind it is
    invaluable...so I read...a lot...) and I'm fascinated with how history can be
    patched together to form a bigger picture.

    Here's a truly interesting possibility which I myself intend to research
    further; there is a Tibetan Buddhist academy with a truly vast history which
    claims that a young man by the name of Yashua is enrolled on their books as a
    student for over 8 years. Check out: Jesus; Traveller King.

    I have no doubt that there was a person, at that time, who wrote the philosophy
    we read today. My biggest questions on that person have to do with how
    accurately recorded that message was, and what the reality was.

    A side query; Do you wonder if too much time is spent praising the messenger,
    and ignoring the message?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - I would say your...
    question is two pronged....first, if the message is from Jesus about what he had
    to say, he was both messenger and message....

    As for today...I would say resolutely, "Yes!" we do place emphasis on
    the messenger and not the message...Interestingly, a friend of mine is
    Independent Baptist (I am Southern Baptist)...he has witnessed the congregation
    applaud the pastor when the pastor takes the pulpit....that is confusing the
    messenger with the message in my eyes...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Public Speaking;
    I've done a lot of it. A LOT (worked as a teacher, have done several musical
    performance, teach M.A. classes), and I'll applaud anyone with
    the...chutzpah...to get up in front of a group of people and speak for an hour.
    It's difficult to do, and truly difficult to do well.

    I get dry mouth, and sometimes hand tremors (bad for a musician!).

    As for messenger/message, while I was in church one thing I always hated were
    the hymns. It was, for the most part, as though the composer had scientifically
    designed them to suck the life out of any sermon. I'll admit it, I'd probably
    show up at any church where they still played Bach, and I do still enjoy the
    News Boys (slight blush...not tough at all...).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Geez
    antitheist

    I assume that you are intelligent by the way you talk about science and stuff.
    But geez, I can't help but resort to name calling when it comes to you acting
    like you know the Bible, and have done the Apologetic research. You are wiser
    than your teacher! Now that's pride and arrogance.



    You see the disconnect obviously is that we believe in God and you don't. You
    don't believe in God therefore you don't abide by the Bible nor can find it in
    your heart to understand it...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Understanding
    There is a BIG gulf between the concepts of understanding and following. We
    both understand what the flat-earth idea is, but I'm pretty sure that neither of
    us follow it. We both understand what National Socialism is as well, but we
    don't follow that.

    Don't accuse me of not understanding your religion on the basis that I don't
    follow it. I understand quite perfectly well. That doesn't mean I have to
    follow it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - It was taught to me...
    ...as a boy that Geez is really short for Jesus, and so constitutes a blasphemy.
    I remember getting hit for saying it. I'm often still a little shocked when I
    hear the term used...some things never change.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Good to know, thanks
    Now that i think about it, it makes sense. Had I known I was being blasphemous
    I wouldnt have said it. Haha. I have been trying too stop the "oh gosh"
    too. Praise God for his grace and mercy!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Alternatives
    If it's any help, my religious sister uses 'oh joy!' as her standard quazi-cuss.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - your misunderstading of the bible is not surprisin
    matthew 5:17-20

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
    not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven
    and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen,
    will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to
    do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices
    and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I
    tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the
    teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Strangely enough;
    I've quoted that exact verse below.

    An addendum to that verse may come in Rev. 22:18-19

    "18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of
    this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the
    plagues that are written in this book:



    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
    God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
    and from the things which are written in this book."



    This verse says, 'IF.' As such, it curses anyone who alters it, but does NOT
    say that such alterations will not occur...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - www.carm.org
    CARM-Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry - This site answers many
    questions regarding Bible difficulties (so-called "contradictions").
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Apologetics...
    ...I've heard the term, and I will look into the site, but first, would you be
    willing to explain what 'apologetics' is?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - 2Pet.1:1-11 Through the knowledge of Him
    Apologetics is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a
    rational defense of the Christian faith. It serves to equip believers with
    knowledge, which will, by the power of the Holy Spirit (Act.1:7,8), help us
    become more effective witnesses.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Excellent!
    Then let's begin with a question;

    How do you know the bible is a text to be trusted?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Got Jesus?
    The very fact that the Truth of the Bible and it's counsel cannot be understood
    or known without Jesus! (Luk.24:45; Act.8:26-35; Rev.3:14-22; Isa.9:6;
    )Job12:7-13; Psa.16:1-7, 33:8-12, 73:24-28, 106:13-15, 107:8-15; Pro.19:20,21
    and 21:30; Isa.28:29, 30:1-4, 46:10-13; Jer.23:17-20; Mic.4:12; Luk.7:30;
    Rom.11:34-36
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Says who?
    I'm no convert, but I understand it quite well, thank you! Agreeing with it is
    another matter.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Trusting the Bible
    Here we have to study the histiography of the text...The OT texts, Masoretic
    (MT) and Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS)are plentiful....and they have been found to be
    highly accurate...to the point that Archeologists use the texts to discover
    ancient civilizations...Science using history...This is basic, but we can go
    deeper if you like.

    The NT is even more incredible. Compared to the Iliad by Homer, or The Gaulic
    Wars by Ceasar, or really any other ancient texts...the NT smokes them all.
    There are more copies of the NT texts than any other ancient document. The NT
    has been shown (evidenced) to be written within 50 years of the actual
    events...time when people living during the events could have refuted them, but
    history is silent...hmmmm....Again, we can go deeper, but the OT and NT are
    sound historical documents!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Historical Documents...
    Oh yes, I agree that there is a great deal of history to be gleaned from both
    old and new testament documents (BTW, have you actually READ the Dead Sea scroll
    translations? I have. They are identifiable, but NOT unchanged! Fascinating,
    though) but I also call into question what I call 'supernatural explinations.'
    For example, Moses is an Egyptian name suffix (M'ss) which means 'son of' and is
    followed by a gods' name (Ramses; son of Amun Ra), which may possibly show
    Moses' rejection of gods.

    I bring this up only to postulate that what we now know as Judaism may be a sort
    of revamped Egyptian religion. As evidence, I offer that the word 'ark' is
    originally Egyptian (Smith's Bible Dictionary). There are MANY other parts of
    OT religion derived from Egyptian practise. I would LOVE to go into this area!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - But Moses didn't
    give himself his own name...he was named by Egyptian royalty....right?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Correct.
    It seems, from the name alone, admittedly, that we end up with a royal suffix
    without a divine prefix. Could this have been Moses' way of asserting
    legitamacy without owing anything to Egyptian religious authority? If it were
    just that, then it would still qualify as a sound political move.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - But would not the...
    text have indicated another name? Or, how about another history from the period,
    wouldn't another record from the same period indicate another name? My assertion
    is still he did not name himself...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - A prophet by any other name...
    I should probably study heiroglyphs in more detail to be sure of this, but for
    most of human history, naming systems were not designed to sort you out as an
    individual, but lump you in as a group member (Roman names are a good example of
    this. Sextus Julius Ceaser would be the sixth son of the clan Julia and the
    family Caeser. All girls in the family would be named Julia Caeser). Egyptian
    names are of the same bent. Ramses would denote 'son, of the religion of Ra.'


    Therefore, by Egyptian standards, M'ss (Moses) would indicate, 'male.' The M'ss
    suffix was reserved for royalty.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...So I WILL!
    On extant tombs, we often hear about the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This
    followed religios beliefs where a goat-figure was worshipped (look up depictions
    of Moses in classical art; note that he's depicted with goat's horns). Where
    most Christian researchers stop short in thier description is the translation of
    the Egyptian assertions that the dead Pharaoh was to repeat to Anubis in the
    after-life. Please, look it up; it's quite shocking! It is a VERBATUM
    reiteration of the 10 commandments, with 'thou shall not,' replaced with, 'I
    have not.'

    So, using Occam's razor, I contend that it is easier to explain the appearance
    of the 10 commandments by postulating that Moses, who was educated as Egyptian
    royalty, simply used a bit of showmanship to put forward the rules he'd learned
    as an Egyptian prince.

    Coincidentally, it seems that that's where we get the word 'Amen,' from...Amun
    Ra!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Here we go with the...
    chicken and egg debate. You readily admit that the Jewish nation was in
    captivity in Egypt. So what's not to say that the Egyptians didn't adopt Jewish
    tradition? As far as the 10 Commandments, most of them were known by the
    Israelites prior to Moses handing them down in written form...Remember Cain?
    Remember Noah? We have all of the information necessary to see the Commandments
    in place prior to the handing down of the actual Tablets.

    So in using Occam's Razor, you have excluded Locard's Exchange
    Principle....simply reasoned, the Jews could have rubbed off on the Egyptians
    just as easily as you say the Egyptians rubbed off on the Jews....
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Haha!
    Very probable indeed. In fact, this may be one of the reasons that Tutankhamun
    was also called Tutankhanaten. Political pressure forced a religious conversion
    from monotheistic to polytheistic. Which is interesting in itself, because
    Ramses was not the pharaoh in the biblical timeline. And he was supposedly
    killed in the red sea, so there should not have been a body found.

    One theory has it the the 'Isrealites' were a)not Isrealites at all, but
    Sumerian mercenaries (makes sense, Ur, Abraham's home town is in Sumeria) who
    were recruited as labourers (the Hebrew Torah does NOT use the word 'slave.')
    and took issue with being demoted from war to construction.

    This helps explain how effective the Mosesian military was...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - For the record...
    ...I've visited this website, and offered a dialogue with it's creators, to be
    published. I'll keep you informed as to whether they take me up on my offer. I
    find myself supporting what they do; seriously and rationally looking into what
    they believe, and also looking into what others believe. I honestly hope they
    take me up on the dialogue.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ed Leese  - This side
    We aren't promised a "good life." I fact, we are told that will be
    persecuted. What Jesus Christ did for us is in the now,but the reward is on the
    other side. The only thing that we are commanded to do it love God and our
    neighbor, and spread the Gospel.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Good Life!
    This is a point that I was actually making, and have studied across religions.
    You see, from what I've gathered in terms of majour religions, this 'suffer now,
    paradise later' is a nearly universal theme in religion. The 'suffering' takes
    many forms, almost always politically expedient (the version of Buddhism taught
    to the samurai, Tendai Zen, for example, advocated treating death with total
    disregard, while Shinto taught that death didn't even mean leaving this
    world...voila! Kamikaze!) which helps create a society willing to do all the
    suffering that the aristocracy needs to sustain it's lifestyle...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - You view this...
    as a downfall of religion, but does it negate religion? Second, you add the
    variable of man, which you have made abundantly clear can use religion to his
    advantage, and the disadvantage of others...yet does this negate Christianity
    specifically, and religion generally?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - On evidence...
    ...I would have to say that it doesn't help the case any.

    No, these facts have nothing to do with the existance of a deity, but I do think
    that they have a lot to do with the information that is disseminated about the
    existance of a deity. When a large amount of money and effort is spent trying
    to get you to believe something, the first thing I would ask is; who benefits
    from me believing that?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - But who is trying...
    to convert you? And certainly, this argument goes both ways. Look at what is
    happening in the States with Global Warming. Several politicos and their
    "pocket" scientists have pushed this onto the American public, yet,
    recently there was evidence offered that the scientists were unethical in data
    manipulation. I would argue that non-believing scientists and politicians are
    spending a lot of money and effort to put forth their ideas and ideals which
    have nothing to do with Christianity...

    So, I say continue to do what you do best...ask questions and seek answers!
    Your decision is yours to make...I can only share some of the knowledge I have
    personally and what I know from others...I will provide sources that I believe
    are reliable and that you would appreciate...after you take in what you have
    learned, you may make an informed decision...I do not charge for this knowledge
    so I gain nothing monetarily from y...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Global warming...
    Oooooh. Huge can o' worms here. All I can say is that the only thing the
    government seems to have decided to do about it is take more of our money.

    But a friend of mine, who's becoming a fairly well-known green figure himself,
    totally ignores the political actions, instead saying that we should clean up
    our own messes, if nothing else. Either way, we end up with a nicer place to
    live.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Further examples...
    Roman Catholicism taught that humans were horrible, little creatures, doomed to
    hell or purgatory at best, and would suffer until their suffering outweighed
    thier sin, allowing them to ascend to heaven. Easiest way to reduce the weight
    of sin? Reduce the weight of your money purse! Purchase 'days off' from
    purgatory! Oh, and the Pope is only a mouthpiece of the deity, so disobeying
    him in ANY way means that you've totally rejected said deity, and no amount of
    money will ever buy your way out of hell.

    Protestant reformation brought the idea that working hard is the way to heaven,
    just in time for the industrial revolution!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s DJ  - Further examples of what?
    What's this got to do with the Christianity that those on this website follow?
    (Repentance and faith). I'm not a Catholic nor believe in works to get to
    Heaven. You might as well go to another website to argue these points as I'm
    more on your side than against.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh, it's coming...
    ...the moderators haven't finished with the processing yet.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - case for sin
    the cracked article about babies... Christians know this already. This is
    exactly what we mean by original sin, and the depravity of man.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hmmm...
    Nothing transient to say after having read the last? Oh, wait...I got it...I
    KNOW what you're going to say;



    'Anti, you don't know ANYTHING! You presume you know the TRUTH! Those examples
    aren't REAL Christians!'



    So, now that I've covered your argument against me, let's try a new tack;

    What is your case to convince me that I should believe what YOU believe? What
    is your argument for YOUR position?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - The papacy
    Is the whore of revelation. Don't you hate it when people belong to a group or
    society but didn't even read the handbook. Catholics say that their authority
    is the Bible, yet it doesn't seem like they have actually read it.



    The Vatican, the wealthiest little country. How much did they give to Haiti? I
    wouldn't doubt if they gave peanuts.



    I am disappointed. I thought you actually understood Christianity because you
    seem like a very intelligent guy. You haven't done enough research. You
    totally miss the mark on understanding it. And you have too much pride to admit
    it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Understanding...
    ...do note that I always divide Catholicism from Christianity. There have been
    wars fought over the concept, those wars seem to end up with the two being
    separate, and I'm certainly NOT going to get in the middle of any effort to
    stick 'em back together again...



    And the babies thing was amusing, wasn't it? But yes, it does go to show what
    our nature truly is, eh?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Continuing with examples...
    Hinduism creates the idea of 'caste'; just in case you were thinking of rising
    above your station. If you were born a slave, then that is what the god(s) want
    you to be, and if you try to be more than that, your next life will be horrible
    as punishment for your arrogance. By the way, a majour feature of that religion
    was the idea that the most perfectly obedient woman MIGHT just have a chance to
    be born again; as the lowliest type of man.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - One more example;
    Modern Christianity teaches today that basicly everything that happens in the
    world is irrelevant (so don't go doing anything) because all you have to do is
    BELIEVE hard enough, and you're saved. All those de-facto aristocrats should be
    told that what they are doing isn't believing, then they should be left alone;
    their punishment will come AFTER they've lived their impossibly rich lives which
    have been bought for them by the rest of the world busting it's butt (hey, Paris
    Hilton DESERVES all those millions! Don't worry, she'll get punished later,
    right?).

    Oh, the world will be a great place to live...if your family's been in 'Skull
    'n' Bones' for the last three generations.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Modern Christianity...
    in my church tells me to pay very close attention to what is going on in the
    world today. It also tells me to take an active role socially and politically
    (which I do). Modern Christianity in my church tells me everything happening
    today is relevant to my life and my afterlife.

    You continue to inject the variable of man, and I add to that, certain men. Not
    all Christians are as you generalize, and the religious beliefs are not as
    simple as you have stated...there is more and it goes deeper...like
    relationships...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I could go deeper
    into specific beliefs, but we tend to get truncated here, so I've gotta be
    general.

    People keep telling me that I'm always injecting 'fallible man' into religion.
    So I postulate, fine, religion is perfect without men.

    What is religion without people to follow it?

    Go ahead, take out the 'man' factor, but then you have no religion at all.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Which is the point of...
    Christianity...not religion but relationship. Here: You are a martial artist. Is
    there someone in Martial Arts that you look up to? Supposing there is, what
    would you do to make your skills just like what you admire in that person? Do
    what they do, right? But, you are not that person, so you may never get
    there...but you do it anyway, because you see that as an ideal to achieve. You
    establish a relationship to that person. Suppose you reach out and ask that
    person to teach you...now you establish a relationship with that person...You
    don't practice because that is what you are supposed to do, you practice b/c
    that's what you want to be.
    The same is true for Christianity. Religion implies works (yes, I know, Faith
    without works is dead -> that's another issue). But, religion, as you may know
    it is not relationship...I may say that I am a duck, but that doesn't make me a
    duck, even if I quack and swim...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Ideals...
    ...like relationships, are an individual thing. Yes, there are many martial
    artists that are vastly superior to me in many areas. But that is THEIR ideal!
    I've seen many very promising students lose out on thier potential because they
    are trying to copy someone else, instead of being themselves. While I wish I
    could kick like Chloe Bruce (remarkable ability, YouTube her!) my body is just
    not designed that way. That's not to say I'm not a good kicker, but simply a
    different type.

    I practise because it reminds me of who I am. Nothing puts your mind in the
    here and now like a skilled person trying to catch you in a moment of
    inattention!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Modern Christianity
    antitheist

    You are wrong saying that "Modern Christianity teaches today that basicly
    everything that happens in the world is irrelevant (so don't do anything)"

    You need to stop with saying things like you know for sure 100%!

    I am in a ministry called Salt and Light at my church. The purpose of this
    group os to educate Christians about current events and to examine those events
    from a biblical persepective.

    On Tuesday we talked about repeal of dont ask dont tell, defense of marriage
    bills, sb777 passed allowing boys to enter into girls restrooms if they feel
    like a girl that day, california human rights ammendment, etc.

    We pray and take action.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Interesting
    What was the conclusion made there? What action will you take based on that
    conclusion?

    I'm not gay myself (for no other reason than I just don't find men attractive)
    but when I hear about those issues, I have to ask a single question to decide
    which side to take;

    Which side's action causes harm?

    And I have to recall that, 50 years ago I wouldn't have been able to marry my
    wife. She's not part of my race. Even today, I've actually been called a 'race
    traitor' to my face.

    So I have to ask; isn't it the gay couples who are split apart and emotionally
    scarred by laws that keep them apart who are the real victims in all this?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - disconnect cont'd
    All an unbeliever(you)sees though, is the suffering here on Earth, with no
    hope/desire/imagination for a place called heaven, where all suffering ceases.
    Can you be born into the 3rd world and love life, love family, love nature, and
    love God despite circumstances? I am willing to say yes to that! For there is
    PROMISE of something better than this world that is full of constant yearning.
    When we yearn it is because we seek something that doesn't exist here on Earth.




    Whoever told you that converting to Christianity would make life here on Earth
    enjoyable they flat out lied! You will never be satisfied here, and you know
    it! We know it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Unbelievers!
    Sounds like life must be pretty bleak indeed for us atheists, eh? Here's a bit
    of a sociological chestnut for you; in order to be supported (ie. NOT utterly
    wiped out) by governments, world religions must all, invariably, justify social
    inequality in a way that allows the super-rich to remain super-rich.

    I'm arguing chicken and egg here. Does religion allow poor people to be happy,
    OR does poor people's deluded, happy religious state prevent them from doing
    anything about the poverty?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Yet, you don't...
    include the plethora of "rich" Christians who give money, time, service,
    and other physical items to needy people. One example, Jerry Falwell, now
    deceased, has given money, time, housing, food, clothes, etc. to very needy
    people. He has taken in abandoned girls, built them a home and provided them
    with a fresh start. He has given who knows how much in educational expenses to
    who knows how many students, and these are just the things I know, personally.
    And he ain't the only one!

    Sure, there are those televangelists who make the rest of the good ones look
    bad, but in your own words, do your research...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Jerry Falwell
    I delayed on this one, to make sure my research was right. Let's get quoting!

    "The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews."

    "You've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. And I'm for the
    president to chase them all over the world. If it takes 10 years, blow them all
    away in the name of the Lord."

    "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not
    be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God
    mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists,
    and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an
    alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who
    have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say
    'you helped this happen.'" --on the 9/11 attacks

    Jerry Falwell is sick.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - finally... the disconnect
    antitheist

    There HAS to be something after this life! Would you say that you ended up in
    Canada(free Health Care and all) because of natural selection or survival of the
    fittest or whatever. What makes you better than the poor people/races that
    landed or got stuck in the 3rd world countries to die from malnutrition and
    unsanitary conditions? Christians believe people were created,thus all equal
    and loved by God...



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Better...
    ...I told you, nothing makes anyone any 'better' than anyone else. We're all
    just different patterns of the same stuff.

    And I think you are also generalizing to give a rosy picture of Christians.

    So, how did this great 'equality' of your religion's work out? 'Rule of Thumb?'
    'Slave trade?' 'KKK?' I'm thinking that you're deliberately leaving some
    things out that are extremely relevant.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - The implication here ties...
    in the Moral argument. You must establish your foundation for morality before
    the question can be answered. Just so you know, I believe morality comes from
    the Creator, and because of the sin nature of man, we can not be wholly
    moral...yet!

    Secondly, I live in the US. Suppose I really liked Canada, its history, its
    society, its politics...if I started to call myself Canadian, without really
    moving there to enjoy those things I like about it, does that make me Canadian?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Canadians...
    ...yeah. We rock. I know.

    That said, there is a clear and accepted means of establishing who is really a
    Canadian. The means of establishing who is really a Christian are anything BUT
    clear! One group claims the line is baptism, the other claims acceptance,
    another claims following the sabbath (one claims Sunday, the other Saturday, and
    different groups argue about the sunset issue). But they ALL claim the others
    aren't REAL Christians.

    As such, I just cannot work with the argument that the other people aren't what
    they claim to be; perhaps using a rather medieval standard is the most
    appropriate way to determine loyalty. Just ask who they are loyal to.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Thought you would...
    appreciate the analogy :)

    I agree with your statement. You, unfortunately, do not know who is Christian
    and who isn't. Our thoughts, deed, our lives, are supposed to set us apart from
    the "world". Yet, you don't see this in everyone claiming the
    position/lifestyle/title...I do say this...judge those calling themselves
    Christian by the Biblical standards: do they help the needy, do they forgive, do
    they hang out with the "sinners" like Jesus, do they help the
    "Samaritan"? These are good cues to look for in someone claiming to be
    Christian...this is after all WJD (What Jesus Did).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Hasty Generalizations
    Black people are great dancers, basketball players, and love fried chicken and
    watermelon, and like to riot.



    You catch my drift? You can't generalize Christians based on a few effin
    idiots! (i don't mean black people are idiots)



    I also met a nice family who have left the luxury of the US to be missionaries
    in Tanzania. Shoot I forgot to ask them if they brought peanuts for when they
    return to the people.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Truly?
    antitheist

    I love people. So do you. I also deeply care about the plight of the homeless
    people in the U.S and abroad in 3rd world countries, because they are all
    creations of God. Put it this way, I love everything and anything because God
    made it for a purpose, whether you see it as good or bad. But I think instead
    of pointing the finger at Christians for "not even giving a peanut" i
    suggest you take a look at yourself as well. If we all really cared as much as
    we say we do, we would give it all up like the apostles did and live in the
    third world, period.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I did.
    While I was trying to make sense of the things that were going wrong in my life
    at one point, I did indeed 'give it all up.' I'm not kidding here. My total
    posessions included 2 changes of clothing, and three books (which I would
    exchange once I read them), as well as a bag to carry them in. I lived amongst
    the 'lowest' people, and worked the most menial of jobs. My theory was that
    separating myself from possession would help me find out where the problems
    were. I found out...well...nothing I could truly explain to anyone who hasn't
    been there.

    That said, I would also not change that experience for anything. It served as a
    reminder of just how skewed our perspective tends to be.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh...
    ...and I never said that Christians didn't GIVE a peanut; what I said was that
    none of those peanuts find their way to the hungry people. They all land on the
    plates of the people who already have all the rest of the peanuts.

    Frighteningly, a lot of people think that what they give to charity actually
    goes to people in need; it doesn't. Current law allows for up to 96%
    'administration costs' in charitable donation distribution accounts. There is
    very little regulation in how the rest is distributed.

    The only charity I really trust now is the one where I walk to a soup-kitchen
    with a load of dinner-rolls.

    I wasn't accusing Christians of not giving, I was stating that many have no idea
    who they're really giving to.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s DJ  - There's Mr. Absolute Knowledge again
    "I was stating that many [Christians] have no idea who they're really giving
    to."



    The most you can get away with here would be to say "a few". Unless you
    personally know millions of Christians and what's in their head when they give
    to charity you can't make this blanket statement.



    For example: "I know one atheist whose arrogance is what is keeping him from
    God". Notice I didn't say "many" even though I believe it to be the
    case.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - What I know...
    ...is that there are a good many 'charities' buying up large blocks of
    prime-time advertizing. What, Mr. Can't-infer-from-evidence, do you think pays
    for those ads? And why are so many of those organizations so desperate to give
    them out?

    But don't take my word for it; do some of your own research. I'm reiterating
    what I've seen, putting together evidence, and making a case, which can be
    disproven if it's wrong.



    Ever been to the ocean? Either way, you've only touch infinitesimal fractions
    of the ocean, but according to your logic, you have no grounds to assume that
    any of it that you haven't touched is even wet.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s DJ  - Go ahead change your words
    We're not talking about what charities spend on what. You said "Christians
    have no idea who they're giving to." You don't know who I give to or how
    much. Sure say what you will about certain charities (which you haven't named
    yet), but don't pretend you know why/how millions of people give. It was just a
    silly statement that you presume to be all-knowing about.

    And to take your ocean analogy, you're basically saying you know what all fish
    in the ocean are thinking by looking at the waves.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - uh...no...
    I'm saying I can predict the current by measuring the direction and speed at
    several points.



    I've made no assumptions about you personally. What I did note is how various
    charities, which I will not name (do your own research on this, and do tell me
    if you find a good one) thrive on duping people into giving them money,
    especially those using 'Christian' titles and themes.

    Again, do your own research on this one. More than anything, I hope that you
    give to charities that actually do something other than buy ad space with thier
    revenue.

    And don't feed me that line of 'all-knowing.' I've been far more willing to
    look at evidence and change my opinion than anyone here. Give me something to
    look at, and I'll give you an honest assessment. Can you say you'll do the
    same?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Dendrochronology..
    For the record, dendrochronology (dating via rings in cross-sections of trees)
    is based only on the observational fact that those rings grow at a rate of one
    per year, and that different years produce different types of rings, very like a
    finger-print. Not only can a decent dendrochronologist confidently place the
    rings of a tree on a time-line to the nearest year, he/she could also show the
    exact dates of any events that would cause a marked effect in trees, such as
    droughts, plagues, forest-fires, and exeptionally good growing seasons. There's
    a lot to be learned from trees!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char...
    Have you read my challenge below? You must understand; I think that you're one
    of the kindest, most honest people on this site. I know that you're trying to
    tell me something you feel is important, and I appreciate that fact that you
    think it would help me (though I really don't see how).

    I'm honestly trying to see things from your point of view, so I can at least
    sympathize with the position of people that I honestly don't think I could ever
    again be a part of. All I ask is that you do the same for me; look at what I'm
    trying to tell you, if for no other reason, because it would show you where the
    real divide is. Disagreement is not wrong, rather it is the genesis of
    understanding...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s CHar  - what are your thoughts?
    antitheist

    What are your thoughts about former atheist scientists such as Professor Anthony
    Flew, who have come to a self conclusion that there had to be intelligent design
    or a First Cause god?

    This is probably another disconnect... I have been finding a lot of
    well-renowned scientists of the present and the past stating that there had to
    be intelligent design. I am pretty sure you have researched this also. Did you
    find flaw in ALL of their logic already?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yes and No.
    Like I said, I just listened to a scientist ramble for over 8 hours on the
    topic. He was wonderfully well-researched, a brilliant presenter, and highly
    respected in his field. He was also deliberately manipulating his data to
    discredit evolution, to the tune of assuming that carnivores aren't supposed to
    eat meat (I'm not exaggerating here!).

    As to the I.D. route, what they really mean is Christian creationism. No, I
    don't subscribe to that view, because the evidence for it is simply
    non-existant, or relies on unprovable assumption (the universe was pre-aged when
    it was created in a literal 6-days).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Dr. VEITH!!!
    My sister has just agreed to read TGSOE if I am willing to listen to Dr. Veith's
    lectures on young-Earth creationism. I've taken her up on the challenge, and am
    currently into roughly hour 7 in the series. I'd love to debate this guy's
    theories...does anyone out there know his work? I can hook you up with the
    .mp3s if you don't!

    To quote good ol' G-man; CHOMP CHOMP! That's me chomping at the bit!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - poulation contd
    a theory that suggests that overpopulation will destroy mother earth due to
    polution and food shortage. I don't doubt this. I do think though when chaos
    strikes, you will be exhibiting "survival of the fittest" Who will be
    killing who then? Rest assured us Christians will not be ravaging the streets,
    hoping to come out on top. Us weak little Christians will be too busy praying!
    Maranatha! Ask the Muslims they don't care to die either.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Weak little Christians...
    ...who are responsible for the Crusades, Inquisitions, Conquistadores, Jesuits
    in general, and those people who scream "GOD HATES FAGS!" at funerals,
    while paying to upkeep a charming little website on which the number of days
    certain homosexuals have been burning in hell, are going to be too busy PRAYING?
    HAHAHA! You think I'm betting on THAT!?! Are you seriously out of your mind?




    No, I went out and learned how to make a fire, grow a garden, and be REALLY hard
    to find. As well as to be quite lethal with a sword, for which I need no
    bullets.



    You 'weak' little Christians are busy telling the people of Haiti that the
    earthquake is their fault because they 'made a deal with the devil.' Right.
    Keep praying.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Weak little Christians
    antitheist

    Well I'm not betting that you would be helping a Christian over an atheist if
    you had to choose. You brag about all this martial arts, karate,swords, kung
    fu, arnis, jiujitsu, muay thai, ultimate warrior training, (which I think is
    lame), as if you are in sure preparation to kill Conquistador, Inquisition,
    Jesuit, Crusades, Protestant, people.



    Like I said, I would like to see you in action on a Islam blog. "Believers,
    take neither Jews nor Christians,(or any other unbelievers) for your
    friends." (Surah 5:51)

    vs Matthew 5.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Bragging...
    Wow. You assume a lot. First, you don't have a single martial art I've studied
    right, other than the fact that I know how to use a sword, and again, you have
    no idea how or where or what style I learned. I've repeated ad nauseum that I
    don't wish to fight ANYONE, and even gone so far as to state that martial arts
    have the purpose of ENDING the violence as quickly as possible.

    As to who I would help; I HAVE helped in several violent situations! Trust me
    when I say that I don't ask what RELIGION the combatants belong to before I do
    something. It is a total non-issue there.

    Stop assuming that I want to kill Christians, because it is simply not so!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Population control?
    Wow im glad you think an embryo is human life. But the rest of your answer about
    too many orphans, homeless, etc reminds me of Bob Barker and The Price is Right.
    At the end of each show he would remind us all to control the pet population and
    have our cats and dogs spayed and neutered.



    Is this aome part of Eugenics or something?I have to look it up.



    You need not fear us Christians antitheist. I believe there is a theory that
    thinks...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No.
    It's about taking care of what we already have before we bring more in. Think
    about it like the population economy. If someone already spends his money on
    stupid investments, is the solution to give him more money?



    If we spend our population on non-functioning 'social' systems, should we really
    be bringing in more unwanted population?

    I know you'll say we should all stop having sex, but I bet you'll give the exact
    same odds I would on THAT happening!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Short on time a few more questions
    What is it about atheists that would cause them to spend so much time,
    attention, and energy refuting something they don't even think exists?



    You have said because we kill.



    You kill, you don't believe in the preservation of life vs preservation of life
    moral dillema. I had two abortions because I didn't know better. You know
    better and you still agree with it.(preserve orphans over developing).



    I would think you were a much more credible atheist if you were fighting the
    real enemy. No one that you are speaking with on this site is killing anyone.
    Be a true warrior and fight the ones that are really doing the atrocities you
    speak of. Maybe put your time and energy into protesting that Islamic
    terrorists be tried in military tribunal, not in Civil court. CHristians are
    praying for this and they are acting by talking to their state reps. Nobody
    else really cares. Canadian Atheists don't care a...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Truly?
    According to Rudolph Hess, Hitler was a 'good Catholic,' I've personally had to
    stand guard at an abortion clinic because a fundamentalist Christian group was
    threatening to murder the doctor (they had no idea that he dealt specifically
    with ectopic pregnancy; most of them had no idea what that was! IDIOTS!), I've
    personally stood by the target that was used for the Nagasaki bombing. Do you
    know what that target was? Look into it!

    Ever hear of 'Fair Trade' products? Look into it, and realize what you ARE a
    part of! Ever bought a Disney product? You have given money to the largest
    employer of child labour in the world.

    Consider different scales before you start telling me who to fight. I know VERY
    well who I do battle with, and why.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - You know...
    ...I didn't answer your question directly there.

    You asked; "What is it about atheists that would cause them to spend so much
    time,

    attention, and energy refuting something they don't even think exists?"

    My answer is; The thing that causes me to spend so much time, attention, and
    energy refuting something I don't even think exists is the very thing that
    causes Ray Comfort to spend so much time, attention, and energy trying to coerce
    people into believing it does.

    He is trying to force his beliefs into education, politics, and my very home
    life.

    Is that not enough reason to start asking some serious questions?

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Tree Time-
    The science of dendrochronology is based on the Theory of the Big Bang as the
    starting point for time. Same for the ice-core samples....
    You know the book of Genesis. The creation narrative states that (1)God spoke
    everything into existence, and (2)He called it good (not perfect). As such, He
    created trees, dogs, and man, not the seed, pup, or baby to grow, but fully aged
    items. He created the earth with relative age. Just using the narrative, which
    creationists do, this could discount dendrochronology.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Relative age?
    Perhaps I'm not understanding here...if things were created with age already
    pre-set, why would that be any different than there being billions of years to
    age them?

    And why the effort to pre-age everything? Why would it be important to move
    photons literally billions of light-years from their points of origin, just so
    we could pick them up with space-age, outside-the-visible-spectrum equipment?
    It seems like a lot of trouble has been put into proving that the universe is
    billions of years old, especially if it's all for us; a species that the bible
    has stated will be ended shortly.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - I'm back.... and
    I have survive snowpacalypse 2010!

    Your question hits the heart of philosophical debate? That is exactly....Why?
    There is a choice to be made, philosophically, believe that everything you see
    is one giant accident that occurred with such specificity that it supports human
    life, or believe that there is a creator. This choice is important to
    Christians because it determines how we spend time. We can question the how's
    and why's of existence, or believe there is a Creator and spend time getting to
    know about that Creator.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Snowpocalypse...
    Don't worry, no matter how bad it gets there, keep in mind that I had to work at
    -55C for two days. Second coldest place on the planet, my city was.

    Your choice here was very well-worded, and leaves me open to only one real
    question;

    Which choice is more likely to yeild results?

    So far, history has shown that questioning things often leads us to discoveries
    that, while VERY opposed to conventional models, turn out to be true, and alter
    our experience of life. Think about it; if I followed the beliefs my
    grandparents want me to follow, I could not be married to the lady I'm married
    to; she's both a different race and a different culture than me. Half a century
    ago, our people were killing eachother en masse.

    Good thing knowledge can be questioned, eh?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Starting the Thaw...
    Things are getting better, but the infamous "they" are calling for a
    possibility of snow this weekend, on Monday and possibly next Friday. I wish it
    would Globally Warm a little here. (
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Global warming...
    ...well, I'll drive my car an extra mile if you'll keep doing your part!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Part Duex...
    There are Creation Scientists and other scientists that may take offense at what
    I said, because they see their work as getting to know the Creator, which, by
    the way, was the original reason for the sciences in the first place. However,
    in today's world, no one ever takes the time to find out things for themselves
    and take whatever is told to them from a teacher, preacher or media talking
    head. Christians were told by Peter to be prepared to provide a defense
    (apologian) for the hope that is within them...to give this defense, they must
    know where they stand philosophically, scientifically, politically, and every
    other "ly" there is...This means studying the God of the Bible and
    knowing what He wants based on what He said in the OT and NT.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Language-I believe that...
    the drawing has been completed by a creationist, Michelangelo. The ceiling of
    the Sistine Chapel depicts one person's studied answer and drawing to the events
    of the creation.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Interesting....
    You site a work of art (albeit a particularly incredible one by a gifted artist
    with nearly unlimited funding and no deadline) that was commisioned by the
    Catholic church. While I find it amusing that the Catholics don't even seem to
    realize that the great artists they paid (with a quiet nod to wood-pile stacked
    around the garrotting post) weren't even painting what they were paid to paint
    (not surprizing; they also don't seem to realize that their whole religion is
    based on a combination of Egyptian monotheism, Roman polytheism, and Dante's
    Divine Comedy), I wonder how you reconcile Catholic art with creationism.
    Genuinely curious here...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - What is ...
    Catholic art? I have never seen this reference in any Western Civ. class I have
    taken? Yes the artist was commissioned to paint the chapel. But he painted his
    conception of God and man...There is no record from the artist or the church, or
    any other history for that matter, that I am aware of that says a priest,
    cardinal or bishop was laying beside him saying, "Paint it this way".

    I agree, Catholics do it different. I don't agree with how the Catholics do it,
    but that does not go so far as to say that there are no Christian Catholics.
    There are multitudes of Christian Catholics, and there are people who play
    Catholic...it's the same with Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Paint this way...
    Out of curiosity, what do you think would have happened if Michaelangelo had
    painted God as a woman?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Tiger Woods!
    antitheist

    Now you know exactly why it is hard for a rich man to enter into heaven! Tiger
    Woods is a prime example! Do you get it yet? The whole world looked up to
    Tiger. In the public eye he was a master of golf because of his discipline,
    perseverance, determination, values maybe etc, and on top of that he has a
    charity. Little did we know none of those attributes carried over into his home
    and spiritual life. He is like the rich young ruler who would not give his
    possessions up, but rather hold on to them and not desire what really matters
    (God, salvation, family.) We Christians pray that he gets his family back
    together.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Uh...
    No, I think he's just a young man who found out that he had no problem
    whatsoever attracting women. Pay ANY young man that much money, and see what he
    does. In all honesty, Tiger was no surprise to me at all.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - uh
    The lesson is, a man with many riches, more often than not does not have the
    best character. The riches hold him back from containing his pride and being
    humble. Not that hard of a moral.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - An interesting sidebar...
    Did you know that the official Church of Tiger Woods recently disbanded, having
    decided that he was not, in fact, the messiah? I'm really not joking here...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - family unit
    antitheist



    It's a long sermon, but i think you will find it interesting.



    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-100
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Whattttt?????????????
    In an older post you asked why the Bible doesn't have anything about the family
    structure?????????????????????? Oh my my it has plenty. If I show you, will
    you respect it a little more?



    You fib, you did not read this Book!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Respect?
    If you read what I wrote, I stated that the bible has no specific laws on
    POLYGAMY, which is true. In fact, it has multiple cases of multiple mates,
    married AND unmarried, and though the multiples always seem to be women, there's
    no rule against marrying/consorting with multiple men. In essence, I was
    pointing out that there's nothing biblical against a woman taking five husbands,
    or two men sharing twenty-five wives.

    It will earn my respect when people stop killing eachother over it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - No you said family
    "Off topic here, but strangely, there seems to be no law at all, biblically

    speaking, regarding that lightening-rod issue; the family structure."



    Read the sermon. And get a real Christian persepective.



    Polygamy- the sermon tells you why women do what they do.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No, I said, POLYGAMY!
    Here's the full quote, which you ever-so-carefully edited;

    "Off topic here, but strangely, there seems to be no law at all, biblically

    speaking, regarding that lightening-rod issue; the family structure. Yes, I

    know homosexuality is forbidden (stupidly; it harms noone), but no structure of

    polygamy is ever condemned..."



    Again, read what I wrote.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - anyway, family structure
    Are you quoting yourself as not saying "family structure" at all?
    Trivial i know but you said "lightning rod issue, semi-colon, the family
    structure, period. So just say you meant the lightning rod issue- polygamy.
    wow, that was really weird.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Pedantic, but sure.
    Yes, I said 'family structure.' What you are doing is creative editing. If I
    say, "I do not believe in god." you can edit out the 'not,' and leave
    the rest of the world with the sentence, which I DID say all of, 'I do...believe
    in god.' I can try to correct the misinterpretation, all the while admiting
    that those really are my words, and trying to get across the point that there
    were MORE words!

    What I'm saying is the the family structure seen in Bountiful B.C. is biblically
    sound. I'm wondering why the contraversy?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Creative Editing
    You attempt to debunk the Bible by using creative editing. (Mk.12:13-17;
    2Cor.4:1-6) You mishandle the Word of God when you take verses out of context in
    an attempt to support your critical view of God. (Jn.5:39-47) The entire Bible
    is a testimony of Who God is (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), and what He is
    (Judge, Lawgiver). God is Good, Holy, Just, Righteous, Longsuffering, Merciful,
    Love, Understanding, All Powerful... He is our Greatest Hope and Strength. He is
    the Saviour of all who trust in Him. God never changes. God is Above all. No one
    has the power to change the Truth of God and His Word. Not even you.

































    You attempt to debunk the Bible by using creative editing. (Mk.12:13-17) You
    mishandle the Word of God when you take verses out of context in an attempt to
    support your critical view of God. (Jn.5:39-47; 2C...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...and, you'll pardon me...
    ...but I just spent 8 hours of my life listening to a very educated man expound
    on the literal truth of the 'great flood' story (see above reason). I find
    myself more disgusted with creationist propaganda than ever. I mean, everything
    the guy said was well-reasoned, nicely cited, and very well presented.
    Providing that the only type of rock on the planet is sedimentary.

    I'm serious when I say that this guy actually called scientists uninformed for
    believing that T-Rex ate meat! GAAAAAAH!

    So if I'm snappy for the next bit, sorry, but my head's swimming with glaring
    errors that I don't wish to project onto anyone here.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Validity continued...
    The thing is that they still feed all that garbage of evolution with no proof to
    the schools and universities. They taught that God was just imagined and that
    babies is in the womb of the mother can be in some stage of evolution as a proof
    when the photos were tampered with and then say that it is ok to have abortions.
    You see, in order to have this we would have to be morally insane or taught
    incorrectly in which case they are both wrong and God hates this stuff. That is
    why we have a conscience for us to know that wrong is wrong and good is good. It
    is our choices that make or break us. Jesus Christ is the answer for our sinful
    nature and he took care of all these things; sin and death so we would be able
    to live forever in love, joy and peace.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Let's make a deal, then;
    You actually sit down and read TGSOE, and I'll re-read the bible. You obviously
    know nothing at all about science in general, and are spitting out lines of
    argument that have already been well-and-truly debunked. You could at least
    take the time to find out which ones and how, so you could make a better case.

    Here's a thought for you; there are numerous passages in your bible that teach
    humility. I don't think that there would be any better teacher of humility for
    some of those ultra-rich televangelists than conclusive proof that their
    ancestors weren't always modern humans (proof we have). The real issue in your
    above post is that you're too arrogant to acknowledge the reality. You just
    HAVE to believe you're special.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Chris  - Validity continued, minor changes made...
    There is quite a lot of evidence of evolution actually. There is virtually none
    for appearing in a garden with a talking snake. Obviously, the snake must have
    evolved because it can no longer speak.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Validity,,,, Ready set go!
    Except for the animals that were saved, 2 of each kind, 7 pairs of the clean
    animals for sacrifices, yes even dinosaurs. Let's just say that you can fit an
    awful lot of animals on an ark that holds over 530 railroad cars full of space.
    That's a lot of space. The dinosaurs could have been babies or such and God made
    all the animals docile for the sake of the journey, not to mention they all were
    herbivores until they got off the ark in which God said that they would fear us.
    So, people adapt to where they end up staying and thus change colors and such
    over time. That is not evolution but adaptation. There is no proof of evolution.
    God made sure of that and the hoaxes don't work.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - OF COURSE!
    Why didn't I think of that? Would you care to explain why there are NO natural
    marsupials found outside of Australia? Like, literally NOT ONE? I mean, when
    Noah's boat opened up, somewhere in the Middle East, you mean to tell me that
    every Kangaroo/Koala/Wombat ran out, then SWAM THOUSANDS OF KILOMETERS across
    the remaining ocean, without a single one dying (marsupials are all un-kosher,
    so there'd be only one pair, remember?) and all settled in the same place? You
    truly expect anyone with any brains to believe that?

    And don't be stupid; no man ever had to run from a T-Rex.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Here's a story...
    ...about a little Knight who lived in a BLUE world! And 6 days and 6 nights and
    everything was NEW to him, it was all BLUE, inside and outside! BLUE, his
    house, with a BLUE little window and the streets are BLUE to him:

    He's BLUE! DABADI, DABADIE 'n' DABADI, DABADIE 'n' DABADI, DABADIE!!!

    (bopping head vigorously)

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Validity.....Ready set go!
    Did you know that stalactites and stalagmites can be made in very large way in
    less than a 100 years as opposed to the hog wash that says it was made this long
    ago because we have to have a reason without God and that doesn't work. You must
    acknowledge God to have done what He said He did or you have to argue with the
    same evidence and proof that there was a flood that covered the earth entirely
    for about a year because God already judged the world once and promised not to
    destroy it by water again and He gave us a sign and a promise by sending the
    rainbow since it had never rained until the time of the flood. We look at things
    and propose things lasted much longer but the oldest tree is about 4000 years
    old and not any older due to the flood and the extensive damage of all the earth
    being destroyed.....
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Did you know...
    That the simple math of trigonometry can be used to calculate distances up to
    around 10 million light-years, with today's instruments? Measurements taken at
    opposite ends of the Earth's orbit for the base of the triangle, in a process
    called 'paralax.' Now, this is grade 9 math here.

    What this means is that the NEARER stars that we can distance using this
    measurement have had to send thier light towards us for, you got it, over ten
    million years. There is no known way to speed up light in the vaccuum of space.


    6,000 years is simply bupkis. We have more annual tree-rings than that, and
    they can't be put down in rapid progression. It's one per yer.

    Keep trying!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s ichat  - Antitheist
    Truly, truly enjoyed the debate above, though it was rather one-sided. Have been
    a humanist/atheist/call it what you will, for while now, and the comments above
    from the hallelujah crowd only serve to reinforce my convictions.

    Antitheist - good work, mate. You're a star!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - All I can say...
    ...is that this IS a very important issue on both sides, and definitely needs a
    great deal of further discussion. I chose this particular venue when I heard
    about Ray Comfort's 'Origin of Species' campaign, and I've been here discussing
    ever since.

    Again, this discussion needs to be had on both sides, because we both need to
    figure out how to address one another. Obviously, Glen's method simply doesn't
    work; it gain's his side no respect, and I've not heard a single convert to his
    way of thinking emerge.

    Similarly, neither does mine. While I've managed to make some inroads to
    understanding with a few people here (thanks, people!), I've yet to hear anyone
    tell me that they hadn't thought about it that way.

    We'll figure it out eventually, I hope.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - My way..
    Hillarious, hey Antitheist I am really sorry but I have helped several people
    come to Jesus. It isn't my way it is His. All I do is witness to Christ
    Crucified and Jesus does the rest. I don't waste a lot of time preaching to you
    what has already been preached and then rejected by you. Your rejection is the
    reason you don't have or know about God. I do recognize that speaking to each
    other would be a great thing. But on this issue it is divisive and was made that
    way By Jesus with His Manefestation in the flesh. I have not tried to convert
    you. Not once. It has been done, you have confessd to accepting it and
    subsequently rejected it. God will not be mocked and you cannot return because
    you will hold Jesus up to contempt. It saddens me greatly 'cause I really like
    some of the person inside of you. You are just so young to loose it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Meeting a deity...
    You know, many people have told me what my reaction to actually coming
    face-to-face with God will be. As though they knew either me, or God. They've
    always assumed two things; that I would beg forgiveness, be terrified, and see
    the error of my ways, and that God would tell me that I didn't 'believe' hard
    enough, and have me tortured for all eternity in a manner beyond human
    comprehension.

    I cannot answer for a deity I find no reason to believe exists, but for myself,
    I guess, I would ask questions. Lots of questions. Perhaps I would only need
    to ask one to understand the rest; Why?

    There are no answers to this in any philosophy. Perhaps that's my biggest beef
    with religion on the whole. You haven't got even the slightest speculation of
    an answer to that question.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - My biggest beef...
    with religion, is religion. The pharisees practiced religion, and so do the
    "Christian" cults. A cult is any so called "Christian"
    organization that says their authority is the Bible, yet this
    "denomination" was founded by some person who says they were a
    "messenger" from God. Like the Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's
    Witness, Pentecostal Onesness, and yes CATHOLICS! And antitheist you were in a
    cult also. Cults like to use "half verses" taking the scripture out of
    context. Cults don't promote the reading of the Bible for yourself because you
    just might find out the REAL Gospel of Jesus Christ. And when you do, you won't
    need the cult church anymore and the founder becomes bankrupt!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Look up the definition;
    ALL religions fall under the definition of 'cult.' And don't worry, your
    religion comes straight out of Roman Catholicism as well, which is the oldest
    extant Christian church, and was responsible for the formation of the bible you
    read.

    So far, I haven't seen the Mormons going bankrupt at all!

    And I must say that no matter which scripture I quote, someone takes massive
    issue with the fact that I read what is there. Case in point, my own sister
    told me that the rape/marriage verse I quoted earlier is valid, because it
    doesn't mention the girl crying out, so she must've LIKED it, and so it's really
    HER fault!

    Do you see what I'm getting at here? Read what's actually there!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s villagetree  - mocking..
    for Jesus, Glen?

    Since when is that worthwhile? I've had this situation played out in front of me
    hundreds of times- when certain Christians- are so sure of their own salvation
    that the way the approach others is often rude, confrontational and
    disrespectful.

    It doesn't work.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Gospel of Jesus Christ
    Nobody is a Christian who hasn't been



    delivered out of error into truth, and that



    truth is that the Bible is the Word of God in



    which the doctrine of salvation is clearly



    revealed in its fullness, that is a belief in



    the true God, the God who is a trinity, the



    God who revealed Himself in the incarnation of



    the second person of the trinity through a



    virgin birth, lived a sinless life, died a



    substitutionary death, rose from the grave in



    a literal resurrection, ascended into heaven,



    sent the Holy Spirit, reigns with the Father



    at His right hand, intercedes for the saints



    and some day will come back to establish His



    eternal Kingdom in glory. That is the



    substance of the foundation of gospel truth.



    And nobody is saved apart from understanding



    that, not ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Bible fear cont'd
    All a "conservative" atheist would have to do next is become aware of
    something called sinful nature (they are a slave to sin), and realize that their
    "conservative" values cannot be maintained by their own will. And even
    if they lived a perfect life according to the laws (pharisees, the rich young
    ruler Mark 10:17)it would not be good enough without dying to self and being
    born again in Christ and having the full armour of God (ephesians).
    Christianity and the Bible simply seeks to deliver us from the slavery of sin
    and enslave us into righteousness. Find that in the Koran.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nature
    Yes, I have a nature. I do not think that there is a concept of 'sin' per se,
    but rather a view of actions and consequences. Without the concept of 'sin,'
    you see, I can use a bad word, or leave a harmful relationship. Without the
    concept of action/consequence, however, we run into bigger problems. There's
    absolutely no 'sin' in using CFCs, for example, but the consequence of using
    them is dramatic and severe.

    Billy Graham has publicly stated that the Haitian earthquake was cause by a mass
    deal with the devil. His solution is that they should all just pray.

    I don't buy into this view at all! In my view, praying is equivalent to doing
    nothing, which would cause the entire population of the country to die of
    exposure.

    What we all undeniably have is a physical nature. Debate the rest, sure, but
    act on what we know is there.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Act on what we know is there.
    The conflict of two natures. Romans 7:15 from the Apostle Paul:

    For what I am doing,I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would
    like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I
    do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So
    now,no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that
    nothing good dwells in me,that is,in my flesh; for the willing is present in me,
    but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I
    practice the very evil that I do not want...



    Yes, Christians pray, but they DO act. They will be in Haiti "doing"
    far longer than any other organization, I can assure you that.





    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Just like...
    ...they've been 'doing' in Africa? Give money to our charities, but none of
    them say a single thing about the oppressive western trade laws that make the
    poverty unavoidable.

    One of my co-workers is from Ethiopia. He lived through that great famine we
    all saw on TV. He said there were missionaries all over the place, but not a
    single one of them brought so much as a peanut.

    In all the piety advertised on late-night evangelical infomercials, I've never
    seen anything that would make a real change. Give 'em food, don't teach 'em how
    to feed themselves. They migh just learn how, and then where would our charity
    be?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Why do people fear the Bible?
    antitheist

    You know what I find fascinating about the Bible? Without it we wouldn't have
    debates about anything. We wouldn't be talking about homosexual rights,
    pornography, pedophilia, divorce, adultery, fornication, break up of the family,
    euthanasia, etc. Why do people hate it and fear it so much if it gives
    honest,loving,truthful, even if authoratative, advice about all these issues?
    (Christians call this the "Truth") I know there are atheists that still
    have "traditional" values. They just need to know that they stem from
    what Christians know is the "Truth"...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Other religious texts...
    Char, on this one you're just plain wrong. Moral conversations have been going
    on since well before the bible ever existed, and many of the answers have been
    the same from the very beginning. For example, on abortion (hot topic, and one
    I still don't have an answer for myself) the only ancient civilization that did
    NOT practice infanticed was actually ancient Egypt.

    Homosexuality is famously discussed in the Middle East. The Chinese had
    mastered civil duty and rights long before Rome had, but it took Ghenghis Khan
    to actually show them that there was such a thing a (admittedly limited) women's
    rights.

    And ALL religions speak of how to conduct your sex-life, according to their
    views. The only thing uniquely discussed in the bible is the specific names
    applied to the Deities.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Do you think...
    That a child is best raised with a mother and a father?



    That mating with something of the same sex is unnatural even in evolution
    terms?



    That watching Pornography can lead someone to more serious things like rape,
    molestation, adultery, etc?



    That an embryo is not human life?











    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Ah, the harder questions!
    These may be the best questions anyone has asked me yet, because no matter how I
    answer them, I make enemies, and so I'm forced to announce my 'side' in the
    war...but I've also stated that I answer all questions honestly, so I will
    answer each of your tough questions in order, with explination, in the following
    posts.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Do I think...
    ...That a child is best raised with a mother and a father?



    In general, yes, but in specificity I have to conclude that there are some
    mothers and fathers that are better than others. There are some single parents
    who do better than couples, and some homogeneous couples who who may do better
    or worse than either of the above. My own dad was a good provider, generally
    tried his best, and could have a lot of fun. That said, he also worked out of
    town most of the time, and could be violent at times. Who did he do better
    than? Who did he do worse than?

    I guess I put the question back to you, Char; do heterosexual parents love thier
    children more? And how can you measure?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Do I think (2)...
    That mating with something of the same sex is unnatural even in evolution

    terms?

    No. There are numerous examples of sexless or hermaphroditic species.
    Gastropods (snails, slugs) are hermaphrodites, ie. all homosexual. If there is
    a deity, and he hates homosexuality, then he's created a hypocracy.

    As to humans, exclusive homosexuality precludes the chance of reproduction, and
    so cannot work, and will be taken care of in nature.

    That said, there may be something to be said for bisexuality; vitually every
    warrior-based society promoted this as a means of strengthening cameraderie
    among troops. Don't think for a second that whatever culture you came from is
    immune!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Do I think (3)...
    That watching Pornography can lead someone to more serious things like rape,

    molestation, adultery, etc?



    No. I think that sexual repression leads to continuous feelings of guilt later
    in life. I'm currently studying abnormal psychology in university, and there is
    a surprizingly strong corelation between conservative religious upbringing and
    obsessive-compulsive disorder.

    I often hear people saying that so-called-sexual-sin leads to crime...I counter
    that sexual repression leads to psychological harm and poor, impulsive
    decisions.

    Don't blame porn for people's lack of education on sexual matters. Blame
    conservatism.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Do I think (4)...
    ...That an embryo is not human life?



    Now this one is tough. Really tough.



    Yes, an embryo is human, and it is alive. Exluding dangerous medical problems
    (ectopic pregnancy, etc) I would generally not advocate abortion...

    ...EXCEPT for the fact that we still have orphans, street kids, homeless people,
    and so many kids going from foster-home to foster-home.

    Before the nervous-system develops, the foetus wouldn't be able to suffer; I
    assure you those people I've listed do.

    In short, I argue for the fixing of the problem of unwanted people before we go
    adding more unwanted people into the world.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I notice...
    ...that so far, noone has looked up who King James is. I'm curious about
    that...because one of the most trusted biblical versions of the bible is, of
    course, the KJV. If you all trust it so much, wouldn't you want to know the
    source?



    I'm genuinely curious about what people here will get out of the history, which
    is fascinating...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Actually I did and...
    I posted, but it was never put up. Don't know if I was wrong or they did not
    want to break up the post.

    King James undertook the task of unifying people in England through religion.
    There were petty arguments among churches and church leaders because each church
    had its own version of the Bible. King James sought unification through one
    translation.

    He used over 50 men who were leading scholars in their fields (Ancient Languages
    and Divinity). He divided the men up into 4 separate groups, divided the
    scriptures and gave each group a set of scripture to validate. When 1 group
    finished, they passed on their work to another for a second validation.
    Published KJV in 1611, and it took over 50 years for widely gained acceptance.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Good!
    'Tis the standard view. What he also did was to alter the footnote and margin
    texts to ensure that there was no translation or interpretation that could
    question the divine providence of the royalty.

    See, the old hand-copied bibles tended to be more accurate (and most modern
    biblical scholars agree that the KJV is the LEAST accurate popular version) and
    also tended to question the upper-classes. King James utilized the newly
    imported printing press in it's first European majour usage to 'drown out' all
    the hand-copied version with sheer volume and affordability. Brilliant tactic,
    that, but I question the motives...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Matthew  - Jesus did not say
    that we cannot be his followers if we have possessions. if you are referring to
    the rich young ruler of Mark 10:17-25, then you need to reread the passage.
    First, the man called Jesus
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - And Jesus said;
    ...that he had to give up all he owned. "Rich," and "needle,"
    were mentioned.



    Hold up a needle. Next to a camel. According to the biblical account, you have
    a better chance of getting that camel to walk through the eye of that needle
    than to get into heaven. I'm not sure where I went wrong in my reading, but I
    think it's pretty straight forward.



    But let's use some OTHER metaphors, for fun!

    "A snowball's chance in hell!"

    "A red-sweater's chance in Star-Trek!"

    "A T-bone's chance at Oprah's house!"

    "A fact's chance on Glen's desk (had to do it!)"



    I know how to read. I know what 'context' is. I also know how to use word-play
    to achieve mischievious results. And I'm pretty sure that wasn't the aim here.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Then you should go and read the passage. Jesus was speaking about this man's
    idol worshiping of his money and possesions. Nonthing more. This man had
    amassed so much wealth that he'd would rather keep it than follow GOd. That is
    Idol worship. Try to understand what is going on rather than trying to place
    Justification onto it.

    I liked the red shirt in Star trek comment. LOL.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Interesting...
    ...so you justify having stuff based on reading-in an interpretation which was
    not stated in the text, which cleverly leaves you able to keep all your stuff,
    as long as your gold isn't in calf-form? Convenient!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Still wrong Anti but please continue trying. I don't have any faith in you.
    But let's hope God does.

    Again you are using the word Justify. I justify nothing.

    Again you have some esoteric malarky to stae in you Justification steps. It is
    just left field and outrageously wrong. Good luck.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Justify!
    Um...you justified having possessions by putting a spin into a passage that was
    not there, in black-and-white. What was there, in black-and-white, is that rich
    people have pretty much zero chance of getting into heaven.

    This is not left-field; it is what your book actually says. Just admit that you
    are not willing to follow it.

    I don't have any faith at all, just my best attempts to understand what I can
    sense for myself, and a willingness to alter my interpretation in the face of
    better evidence.

    The evidence I have at this point is as follows;

    1)You believe the bible is an unalterable, perfect text.

    2)The text says rich people don't go to heaven.

    3)You deny you are rich.

    4)By nearly any standard, you are rich.

    5)You deny that what the bible says is true, unless you can 'interpret' what it
    says to allow you to continue being rich.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - "Rich" in the Bible
    Cmon, you have to know that there are rich(money, assets) people that are in
    heaven because they have met the requirements of being in heaven. That is
    repentance of sin and belief in the Saviour Jesus CHrist period. Following the
    10 commandments for your information is NOT what Christians believe is the way
    to heaven, nor do we even consider that righteousness. I believe you are
    misunderstanding hyperbole, and misunderstanding the faith as a whole. With
    that said, I don't think you are yet qualified to refute anything a Christian
    says. You don't know the book!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Point already made...
    ...Oh, I know the book quite well, and I've had the 10 commandments debate
    before. The O.T. is still in effect, according to the words Jesus said.

    "Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets.
    I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true." Matt 5:17, GWT

    Apparently, it is YOU who don't know the book that you say I'm not qualified to
    comment on.

    I know what Christians believe, and I know what the bible says. Those two
    things are not equal.

    Again, if it is possible to add one's own 'interpretation' to scripture to allow
    for possessions, then there should be no problem with interpreting the bible to
    allow for evolution by natural selection.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Pharisee
    You are just like the pharisee's that continually questioned Jesus about the OT
    scripture. Jesus rebuked them and I rebuke you. You know, us Christians know
    why you don't understand the Bible. Unfortunately for you it is something
    supernatural called the Holy Spirit. Without it, we could not properly discern
    the message of the Bible. All witnessing is is telling the Gospel account in
    hopes that the person will investigate it for themselves. Yes, we are
    witnessing to you (an act of doing) and we also pray for you. Why? Because we
    are commanded to love our neighbor and love our enemy. If you don't care to
    believe, we are deeply saddened and just move on, in hopes that someday you
    will. And move one so someone else may receive it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Rebuke all you want...
    ...I just quoted what was in there. I don't follow the fairy-tale, and I notice
    that you don't either. The difference is that I admit that the ideas are not
    congruent with a good life, and you claim to know something about what Jesus
    said that wasn't written down. You've literally put words in his mouth. What
    was said directly was; a)rich people have a REALLY hard time getting into
    heaven. b)the OT laws are NOT revoked!

    It makes no difference to me if you reject that, but don't claim that the bible
    is literal, undeniable, unquestionable truth if you feel you can just
    'interpret' away the inconvenient parts.

    To test your case, quote the verse in which Jesus states that the laws of the OT
    are no longer in effect.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - The Law
    Matt.5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the
    Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the
    truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least
    stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is
    accomplished." Man is made in the image of God (Father, Son, and the Holy
    Spirit). Man has a body, soul, and spirit. Just as God has a freewill,so do we.
    Sin and death entered the human race through the willful disobedience (fall) of
    one man, Adam (1Cor.15:21). All descendents of Adam are under sin (Rom.7:14).
    The law is spiritual. (Rom.7:12) The law is holy, and the commandment is holy,
    righteous and good. God (Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit) is Holy, Righteous,
    and Good. All people fall short of the Glory of God. God alone is perfect
    (Psa.18:30). Through the obedience of one man (Rom.5:19), sin and the grave have
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - The Law (continued))
    Rom.5:19 Through the obedience of Jesus sin and the grave have been overcome.
    Jesus is perfect and He met the requirements of the spiritual law for our
    salvation. Everyone who receives Jesus as Lord and Saviour and puts their faith
    in the finished Work of Christ are not under the law, but under Grace
    (Rom.6:14-23). Under Grace believers know God the Father as their saviour,
    helper, provider, leader, teacher...Rom.8:1-4 Therefore, there is no
    condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the
    law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what
    the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God
    did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
    And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements
    of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful
    nature but accordi...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Rich and not Dishonorable
    We place a high value on things. Jesus never knocked the rich man for having
    stuff. He stated that the rich man was owned, thus a slave to his stuff and also
    an idol as he cherished it more than going to heaven and doing as Jesus Christ
    suggested since he had such a worldly attachment to it all. You can have stuff
    and share it, give it away, enjoy it and God will bless you and give more stuff
    to share and give away. God challenges us in this and shows us that we can be
    rich and humble and live for God and not stuff. Thus, why Jesus said it was
    harder for the rich man to get rid of his stuff due to his heart and motive of
    having the stuff. Many people live life in a temporal form and miss the infinite
    and supernatural because they consider knowledge without the wisdom of God and
    it is the Fear of God The Creator that is the beginning of Wisdom. Knowledge
    without God's Wisdom is pointless because without God there would be nothing...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Got Nike?
    You fail to realize a sad truth of economics; for you to have so much, 8 people
    must give thier lives to providing you with it. For some of us, it's far more.
    Last year, Tiger Woods (great guy, he!) was paid more by Nike than they paid the
    entirity of the population of people who produce the products they hired Tiger
    to sell.

    If you have 17 cents in your pocket, then you are doing better than half the
    world. Make more than $2/day? Then you are in the top 20%.

    Seriously consider what it takes to pay for the life you now live, and who
    REALLY pays for it, and ask yourself if it is truly 'Rich, not Dishonourable,'
    for you to have it.

    Surprizing even myself, I ask you, WWJD?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Nike. Pish Posh
    Let me get this straight. You are claiming that we cause people to die by supply
    and demand? What do you wear? What kind of things do you do for fun? You see,
    God is God. We are human beings made in God's image and likeness. You think you
    have all the facts but yet miss the point. We live in a fallen world and that is
    just the way it is. People have a natural bent toward evil due to sinful nature.
    It is hard for us to deal with but God allows the earthquake to kill both
    Christian and Non-Christian alike. The question is where one places their
    allegiance. Either to God or anyone or anything else. You are good at taking
    things out of context. Do you actually read or do you just take someone's word
    for it. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be
    ashamed but able to divide rightly the word of truth(God's Word)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I wear..
    ...nothing brand-name. Ever. And my hobbies are music and martial arts. As
    for reading, I average one book every two days or so. Here's how I judge what
    is valid; if it works, it's valid. If a book tells me how to kick harder, and I
    try thier technique, and I don't kick harder, the method is not valid for me.

    So if a religion claims it can show people how to be moral and peaceful, and
    those people who read it do not become moral and peaceful, but rather use that
    book to justify becoming even MORE evil than they were when they started,
    well...that pretty much shows it's value, doesn't it?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  -  "Where is your trust?"
    Matt.19:16-30 The "rich" young ruler came unto Jesus in search of a way
    that he may save himself. Jesus revealed
    that only God is good and that you must be perfect to enter into life. The
    young man claimed that he had kept the commandments from his youth up,and asked
    Jesus what he lacked. Jesus aware of his self-righteousness said unto him,
    "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all that thou hast, and give unto the
    poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow
    me."(Pro.8:10-21;1Tim.6:17-19;Rev.3:14-19)But when the young man heard that
    saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.(This revealed that
    he loved himself more than he loved his neighbor.)Matt.19:19,Jame.2:8;Jame.2:5-9
    Jesus then revealed that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of
    heaven and that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
    ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - "Where is your trust?" continued
    than for a "rich" man to enter into the kingdom of God. This shocked the
    disciples who accepted the notion of the day that the "rich" were
    blessed and therefore certainly saved. Verses 23 and 24 correct that
    misunderstanding. In verse 26 Jesus made His point clear, it is impossible for
    men to save themselves; but with God all things are possible. It is not wrong to
    have "riches".It is wrong to trust in "riches". (1Tim.6:17;
    Pro.10:15, 18:11, 28:11; Psa.52:7, 62:10) There are many examples of believers
    who trusted in God and were rich. (Luk.16:11; Gen.13:2; 1Sam.2:7; 1Kin.3:13;
    1Chr.29:21,28; 2Chr.17:3-5; Job42:10-17...)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - m(^-^)m
    Ah, finally! A well-researched, thought-out answer, with proper citations.
    Well done!

    Now, can you have riches without trusting in them?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - To be honest
    Through my relationship with Jesus I have discovered that I have trust issues.
    The Bible teaches believers to tithe. 2Cor.9:6-10 Remember this-A famer who
    plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously
    will get a generous crop. You must each decide in your heart how much to give.
    And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a
    person who gives cheerfully." And God will generously provide all you need.
    Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with
    others. As it is written, "They share freely and give generously to the
    poor. Their good deeds will be remembered forever." For God is the One Who
    provides seed for the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, He will
    provide and increase your resources and then produce a great harvest of
    generosity in you. I am growing in faith and trust in God as I step out in
    obedi...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Another smile
    You've put out a case that I've seen in action for myself, though in a totally
    different context.

    One of my friends in Japan is an even more virulent atheist than I am. To the
    point of nearly intolerable rudeness on the subject (hey, I'm honest, which
    might be seen as rude, but I don't go out of my way to belittle people without
    provokation) or religion. He does, however, believe in a single supernatural
    force; Karma.

    And he's big on testing it. So far he's found that it is not possible to give
    himself into poverty, and that whenever he gives away 100yen, 1000 seem to stick
    to him, like it or not...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - There's a difference
    With Karma you get what you deserve. With God's mercy you don't. 2Cor.5:16-19 So
    from on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded
    Christ this way we do so no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a
    new creation; the old has gone the new has come! All this is from God, Who
    reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of
    reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not
    counting men's sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of
    reconciliation.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Breathe33  - I don't want to say I'm right....
    Alright

    I'm a human bein'

    Bein' happy and sane

    Oh, but human beings

    We all need to quit

    Bein' inhumane



    Yeah, I don't want to say I'm right

    I just want you to know

    I'd don't want to say I'm right

    I just want you to know



    I've a reputation

    For replacing my confidence with fear

    But I'll be untiringly embracin'

    The love that I have found to be sincere



    I don't want to say I'm right

    I just want you to know

    I don't want to say I'm right

    I just want you to know



    To know that there was a man who lived one day

    With holes in his hands

    As some do say

    I believe we'd be friends if we talked and prayed



    So we do

    That's right we do



    I don't want to say I'm right

    Cuz I just want you to know

    I don't want to say I'm right

    I just want you to know



    Yeah, I don't want to say I'm right

    Cu...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - What I have learned about Christianity
    antitheist



    Christianity which is a relationship, and is polar opposite of religion, is
    about humility, period. As gory as it sounds, Christianity IS death to self.
    I love my new found definition and practice of love. LOVE= the will to extend
    one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth.
    ONLY Christians will love an unbeliever enough to tirelessly talk about the Good
    News. It was hilarious to me what the Koran says about Christians and
    unbelievers. (pretty scary, it actually names Christians!) If I were an atheist
    i would spend more of my time trying to convince Muslims that Islam is a
    "fairy tale", rather than deal with the Christian version. (I might
    speak sense to a possible jihadist)



    In some older posts antitheist, you take Bible verses simply out of context,
    when you quote Jesus and his words about war and division, riches, women, etc.
    Can you pleas...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char
    Can I please what?

    If we inject the concept called 'context' into biblical passages, it leaves them
    open to interpretation, which is anathema to biblical literalists. My point in
    showing passages such as I've shown is that if we take them literally, scripture
    is indeed very violent and destructive, and must be opposed every bit as much as
    any other philosophy that leads to such ends.

    That said, it's good to see you back here, Char!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Can you please..
    tell me what you know about the gospel of Jesus Christ, even if you don't
    believe that the Bible is the Word of God, as Christians do. Like what do you
    believe Christians get out of the book? Just curious to what non-believers have
    interpreted the book to be.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Great question, that!
    There are a lot of reasons that people follow religion, not all of them bad.
    There is a social function to religious meetings, access to people who will
    listen, and many people find comfort in thier beliefs.

    But here's where I worry about religion's power to sway, many times (but
    admittedly not all) in the wrong direction; There is also the grand social
    stigma attached to questioning religion's texts, and various powerful people's
    interpretations of them, that I find disheartening. Perhaps the following
    conversation that I had with my own dad might just explain a little...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Conversation with Dad...
    "God gave you everything!"

    "How do you know that?"

    "The bible says so!"

    "How do you know it's right?"

    "I KNOW!"

    "How?"

    "(word I can't post here)!"



    When I was much younger, and not in possession of three black belts, this would
    have erupted in violence, so of course I never asked. And that's the problem;
    my situation is not unique. And it's not just limited to the personal
    relationships people have. I mean, look at just this thread - It IS the
    'Atheism' section of the site, but when a real, live atheist speaks, well,
    you've seen what happens in cyber-space, right? I don't dare ask any questions
    in public.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Your dad...
    Thank you, Anti-theist, for sharing this part of your life. The part about you
    and your dad fighting each other. It shows where the pain came from that drove
    you where you are today. It also shows why you think any warnings are seen as a
    threat of harm. It all stems from your encounter with your Earthy father. No
    wonder you cannot entertain the though of God as a Father to you. You are not
    alone in this endeavor. Many have gone on in this world just as you do. But
    remember this please, love never forces you to do anything. Also remember that
    your dad is a human trying to do the exact same thing as you are. He just made
    a bad mistake and does not know how to fix it. And maybe he cannot fix it now
    because of the resentment built up in your heart.

    Now dot go yellen at me. Honestly examine it. Use your scientific self and
    look at it. You may not be able to and that is okay. THere is a way to do it
    but it will take ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No yellin'
    But that's just one chapter of my life, and I'm well and truly over it. Again,
    the problem was solved by action, and nothing else. While me and my dad
    disagree on a great many things, we both at least know where the other comes
    from. I wouldn't change any painful experience I've had; I wouldn't be who I am
    without them (though I coulda saved some time). Pain and difficulty are not
    just things we want to avoid, but rather they are the motive for action, change,
    and innovation.

    "Take solace in your discontent, for contentment breeds stagnation."
    -Deepak Chopra

    I hold precious little resentment, as it is generally a wasteful emotion,
    focused on an unchangable past. Learn the lesson, and let it go.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - The Bible
    antitheist

    The thing about the Bible, just like any book or story you read, you cannot just
    take a sentence or a chapter or a volume, and determine what the moral to the
    story is. I am sure you know this.



    I might as well have considered myself an atheist from birth up until last year.
    Why? Because growing up I never gave consideration to God. It doesn't even
    matter if I believed in God, because I wasn't living like there was one like I
    do now. All those years, I didn't even crack open the Bible or care to know the
    stories and the lessons that were in it. I didn't know the true synopsis of the
    Bible. But I did know the Iliad and the Oddysey and the lessons in Greek
    mythology...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - The Bible cont'd
    ... So within the past year, I decided to see what the Bible was all about. I
    do this by attending Church and listening to various pastors that are on the
    internet. I also use various study Bibles that have extensive notes. Needless
    to say, I have learned a lot. All those cliche verses that we see around us in
    the world now have a totally different meaning. Why, how? Because I actually
    read the verses before and after it. I am awaiting your response to what you
    think the story of the Bible is about. Any true Christian (not Oprah) will tell
    you there is only one interpretation of the Bible. Only through extensive study
    not even blind faith will the story be revealed.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - If I take the whole story...
    ...you won't like this, but I'm pretty sure this is in fact the basic plotline
    of the bible;

    A divine being creates the world, and puts humans at the top of the food-chain,
    with specific drives and instincts. Said being decides that following those
    instincts is a crime punishable by death, and when those humans (surprize!)
    follow their instincts, humanity is doomed.

    Said being finds Himself in a bind; He doesn't want to kill everyone (nevermind
    that he decided the crime AND punishment, and should have the power to alter
    either) so he makes up for humanities sins by becoming a human and having humans
    kill him (doesn't make sense to me at all).

    He then plans to kill anyone who wasn't impressed by his actions, and let the
    others live.

    I know that sounds harsh, but that really is the gist of the bible.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - 2nd paragraph..
    Your second paragraph is false. Following a false antecedant leads to a false
    conclusion. This line is false.

    False: 1) puts humans at the top of the food chian. Before the deception
    happened what did they eat. It is not stated in the text of the bible. BUT
    after they were decived they were told what they'd eat. 2) Humans following
    thier insticts got us here. his again is a lie. Our instincts were already
    there when we were created. The rebellion took us away from God and it came
    from other than us. 3) The death is a result of choosing to seperated ourselves
    from God. Not sex or any other bogus justification you are seeking.

    This is just a quick three in the paragraph that are false. You only need one
    to nulify the logical progression.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Are we not...
    ...much more valuable than sparrows? I was referencing the assuption
    Christianity makes about man's place in the world.

    Your second statement makes no sense, but I think I know what you're getting at,
    and you probably know what I'm getting at; according to the creationist view,
    your Deity creates man, insticts and all, knowing full-well that the rules were
    to be set in direct opposition, and then decides that not only is breaking any
    rule warranting of death, but that the very FIRST breaking of the rules
    warranted death for everyone, forever.

    Oh, and the text does specifically state that they could eat
    non-knowledge-granting fruit.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char
    I'm sorry for being so blunt there, I know it offends you (it should; it offends
    ME, but for different reasons) though I only mean to tell it as I see it. And
    the way I see it, the bible has had an incredible effect on our civilization so,
    like it or not, and I don't dislike all of it, it is something to be looked at
    very carefully. Again, take off the Christian glasses and read what is there,
    in black-and-white. Try reading the book of judges, but substitute all the
    names with German names, and God with The King. If you can do that, and still
    feel that the bible is a book that should teach you everything you need to know
    about being a good person, then I may have to take another look for myself,
    because there would have to be something I missed...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s DevineDestiny  - No Intel just heart
    Dear Anti, I am not the smartest rock out there and I do not want to debate with
    you. I want to appeal to your heart. I just want you to think about any times
    that you made a decision that didnt seem to set well with you and you wanted to
    be forgiven or maybe a time when someone hurt you and you didnt deserve it. You
    wanted them to tell you they were sorry. You are a unique design. Only one of
    you. No one else like you. You were created with knowledge of right and wrong,
    good and bad, love and hate. Your soul knows the differences. Those qualities
    were created in you. I just want you to look with a different set of eyes. You
    have invested a lot of time to the mind process. I ask you to invest some time
    in the heart process. One thing that no one has said to you, that you should
    know, you are loved. I love you because you are unique and I have never even
    seen you. I love you because that is how I was created. I want you to know t...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Do you not understand?
    I'm not a sad, angry, or unhappy person, generally. I'm not fearful, or
    anxious. I'm not unfeeling, nor unloving. Why is it that being an atheist
    causes people to assume all these things, as though my life could be nothing but
    emptiness and pain without religion? That is far from the truth! In fact, the
    one thing that I have now that religion worked so hard to take away from me is
    control over my own life.

    Yes, emotions are real, and they have physical effects, but they all start from
    thoughts...something to consider.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Control? Ha, ha ,ha you are funny. Since you have so much control I would love
    to see you stay alive for even on your own control. just for starters! And
    what about the influenza bug. I would love to see you use your control to never
    catch it. What about diarrhea. Can you use your own control to not even have
    this? I really doubt you can control much of anything really. Even your anger
    at me for example. Religion does not take away control over you life. If you
    are being controled like this you are certainly not in a Christian faith.
    Christianity bring with it LIBERTY. That words means freedome. FYI.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Take two...
    ...immodium and call me in the morning.

    One of my friends holds a Ph.D. in Theology, he is quite religious, and he says
    that there is nothing around today that Jesus would recognize as 'Chistianity'
    anywhere.

    And how's your liberty coming? Guess your 'freedome' means that you are free of
    all the stuff the rest of us have to do, eh? Don't gotta pay rent, eat, go to
    work, or respond to draft calls, am I right?

    You are not any more 'free' than I. The difference here is that I don't have
    imaginary divine surveillence making me feel guilty 24/7.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - deviod of understanding
    Freedom from the judgement of the law. Grace is my hope not the law. Law sets
    nno man free. You cannot escape it no matter how you justify it.

    I am more free than you. In fact I am free and you are bound. The law is your
    very captivator and you cannot see it. Your only sight is the world and in that
    I am held by the same things such a rent and the rest of the dulrums listed.
    And I am not feeling guilty. If you don't feel guilty when you do wrong there
    is something very wrong with you. Physcological counseling can help you with
    that. I hope.

    And speaking of diarrhea of the mouth maybe you should take your own advice.
    D'oh, there I go again being mean to the poor antitheist guy. Sorry man. BAD
    GLEN! BAD!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - How...
    ...do you figure I'm bound? And what 'law?' There are numerous laws, set down
    by various people for sometimes very good reasons (murder is illegal) and
    sometimes stupendously stupid reasons (so is chaining a giraffe to a lamp-post
    in San Fransisco). Reasonable laws are great things to follow, and I do so.
    Idiotic laws can and must be opposed, legally when possible, and by
    ever-increasing civil disobedience when not.

    Off topic here, but strangely, there seems to be no law at all, biblically
    speaking, regarding that lightening-rod issue; the family structure. Yes, I
    know homosexuality is forbidden (stupidly; it harms noone), but no structure of
    polygamy is ever condemned...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - bound
    Claiming ignorance is no defense. Anyone bound by a law is subject to the
    penalty of said law. That means judgement. Here when someone steals they only
    get penalized when they are caught. So those that do it and get away with it
    are on equal footing with the most righteous of all humans including Antitheist.
    God does not work that way because it is corrupt. God deals with all theft in
    exactly the same way whether you are 'caught' or not. Because the action is the
    very thing that catches you. Remember God is not like us and neither are HIs
    laws.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Antitheist1 - In the beginning...
    Let's start at the beginning. We move through scientific and philosophical
    arguments, then move through history.

    1)How did the earth as we know it begin?

    2)When did the earth begin?

    3)Where did the earth begin?

    Here, earth and universe can be interchangeable, but please make clear where you
    specify which is which.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Beginnings...
    No, the Earth and the Universe are not interchangable in the scientific point of
    view. The current theory on the beginning of the solar system starts with a
    supernova. We can see these, and their remnants. Elements up to Iron56 are
    produced by fusion reactions in stars roughly 100 times the mass of our sun.
    Something strange happens at the point where Iron56 is produced, however,
    because no energy can be produced via fusion from this element, making it the
    ultimate nuclear ash. The nuclear process shuts down, and in a very rapid time
    span, all the energy that was holding the outer layers of the star out against
    the star's own gravity is stopped. The star then collapses under it's own
    weight...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Beginnings LOL
    Oh, please. Yes, BIG BANG. God Spoke and BANG it Happened! Allow me to enlighten
    you a tiny bit. LOL Here is the problem with a supernova creating anything...
    Ready? Oh, that's right you don't know what happens when something explodes. You
    were taught by a man that God doesn't exist and that something that EXPLODED
    with Immense destructive force can somehow make any kind of sense of how
    anything has any balance or could come together as a cohesive unit. Think about
    it. You have a building destroyed and what do you have? A BIG MESS. You people
    sit around and strive to figure everything out without God and where does that
    lead to to more problems in your THEORIES because that is all they are is
    thoughts without God that make no sense at all. There is balance in this
    universe because there was, is and always will be God Almighty and you and I
    were both created by Him and for Him but we can choose to try and explain Him
    away an...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Your problem...
    ...is one of proof. You assert that what you state is true, and cannot be
    questioned, even though you have no evidence for the creation story either. You
    have this concept called, 'faith,' which has been proven wrong time and again.
    Recall; we KNEW the world was flat. It is the center of the universe. Disease
    is caused by demonic possession. All this stuff people once attested to,
    exactly the way you attest to the truth of your story; with no proof. Nothing
    but faith.

    I will convert to you religion, and you only have to do one thing to get me to
    do it; prove your concept. Show me your deity. Show me said deity creating
    something. Anything.

    Until then, the evidence points to big bang, and nothing further.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - I don't have the problem...
    You see, you are in denial and until you grasp and hold onto the fact that God
    is God, he created you and he gets to make the rules and we are to follow them
    out of respect, love, honor and admiration of The Creator. Stop spending so much
    time trying to deny God His Creation and look at the painting, the house and the
    universe and realize there is God and He is The Creator, The Grand Architect,
    The Almighty Sovereign and you get to stand in front of Him and back all your
    grand theory to His face but then it will be too late. So,consider if you are
    wrong then you are going to be miserable for all eternity if you continue to
    deny Him. I honestly don't have enough faith to be an Atheist or Anti-Theist or
    any of those other things other than Christian because I have looked, researched
    and experienced and at the core of this universe is God and His Only Begotten
    Son which redeemed me by His opposing act of unselfishness by dying on t...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Well in that case...
    ...let's look at the evidence you have provided;

    A big list of titles.

    That's it? That's your proof? That's your evidence? I could call you
    "Dragon's Bane," but that doesn't show anything about you and slaying
    dragons.

    Then you go where every Comfort-styled evangelist goes; THREATS! YOU'RE GOING
    TO HELL! ETERNAL TORTURE! FLAMES, BRIMSTONE, SUFFERING! YOU'LL BEG TO
    BELIEVE, BUT GOD WILL LAUGH AND CRANK UP THE HEAT!

    But he loves you.

    I find it amazing that you think anyone would be convinced by that. Never
    underestimate the power of self-righteousness.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Beginnings2
    At this point, a mass hundreds of times our whole solar system falls to the
    center of the star, generating heat as it crashes, whereupon the mechanical
    energy of falling is converted into a massive explosion that slams atoms
    together so hard they fuse into the higher elements in the only process known in
    nature to produce them (we can do this a few atoms at a time in particle
    accelerators). Your wedding band is a small chunk of supernova.



    But to continue, the aftermath of this type of explosion is a huge cloud of
    debris, which starts to coallesce into natural, gravitational spheres,
    consisting mainly of Hydrogen with other elements scattered throughout. This
    was our sun, about 5-7 billion years ago...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Beginnings3
    At some point, the mass of the hydrogen collapses enough to force the first
    fusions of hydrogen into helium, which releases energy, which pushes the central
    mass outwards and starts the formation of a disc of swirling debris. Because
    the density of the hydrogen becomes less with the first fusion explosions, the
    first formation of a star is fitful, condencing and exploding in a very
    predictable and specific pattern known as Cepheid variable stars (important!
    The predictability of brightness and periodicity of these stars is essential in
    measuring distances over 10 million light years). Once a balance is struck
    between the gravity of the star and the outward push of the fusion reactions,
    the star formation is complete, and the nuclear fireball burns constantly...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Beginning4
    The leftover disc of debris, swirling around the sun, begins to collide and
    stick together via gravity, which in most cases creates another star (in our
    case it nearly did-Jupiter) but in our case, which is the case in about 20% of
    solar systems we know of, created only planets as major bodies. As these
    planets grew in size and started pulling the debris that was close to their
    orbits into them, they both grew in size, and were bombarded constantly with
    space debris. At this point, the Earth would have been a giant, glowing ball of
    molten rock, with an atmosphere of toxic gasses. One supermassive collision
    likely tore a chunk out of the Earth's mantle, leaving us with the moon we see
    today, which is why our moon is unusually large, and unusually similar in
    composition to the Earth.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Beginnings5
    At least I think this is 5...

    It is after this collision that we have our oldest rocks from. They are Zircon,
    dated at roughly 4.4 billion years, +/- 1%. They show that liquid water was
    already present at that time, as well as the first continents. There is some
    evidence that there may have been organic life of some sort around already, but
    I'm not too solid on understanding of that chemistry, so I'll admit that I can't
    explain it well enough, and go do more research!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Beginnings6
    As to the universe itself...that's one strange reality, and one not easily
    understood. For that, Steven Weinberg's "The First Three Minutes" is
    likely the best source of information on the big bang theory. While I have yet
    to show the mathematics (I was always bod at math!) my own personal hypothesis,
    untested to be sure, is that faster-than-light matter, which moves back in time,
    coalesced in the center of the universe, creating what might be referred to as a
    place where speed equalled EXACTLY the speed of light, which releases the entire
    mass/energy of the substance. Thus, in reverse time, the mass and energy of the
    universe equalled infinity, resulting in an acceleration of the
    slower-than-light, forward time universe towards the center. So, strangely, the
    start of the universe may also have been it's end...man, it's my theory, and I'm
    not sure I understand it at all! ;)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Beginnings Reply  - Just Me
    Well explained.

    So, what happened, and I will use your time-frame, and for argument's sake, we
    will use 7 billion, what happened 2 seconds before 7 billion years ago?

    What was there?
    How did it get there?
    How did the Iron56 get here to do what it did?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - The argument from infinite regression...
    ...is the one that you are implying here. ie. go back in time far enough, and
    you must come to a beginning, but what was before the beginning? This leads to
    an infinite regress for which the termination can be only, in the creationist
    view, some being that exists outside the laws of nature.

    There are three problems with this view;

    1) It doesn't stop the infinite regress. To replace a natural infinite regress
    with a supernatural infinite regress only makes it MORE improbable, not less.

    2) No evidence supports it, and

    3) It's not the only possibility.

    For the record, it seems that time and space themselves occured with the big
    bang, and thus there is in fact no time or space before, which is what I'm
    trying to explain with my hypothesis, mathematically. However, I would rather
    admit that I don't know than interject the impossible to explain it...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me -  - Yes I am moving toward...
    Infinite regression, but with science in mind.

    You see, Sir Isaac Newton gave us the fundamental laws of force and motion.
    These laws have been the foundation of many of the physical sciences, namely
    Physics.

    What Newton said with his 3 laws is something we innately know, for every
    action, there is a reaction, or, more plainly, for every result, there is a
    cause.

    Now before you think that I have changed Newton's words, look at his hypotheses,
    and see if I am correct. An object in motion stays in motion unless a force
    acts upon it. Effect (result)- a ball is thrown toward a wall and bounce back.
    Cause - the force applied to the ball from the static wall causes the bounce.
    Cause and Effect
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Cause and Effect
    Which leads naturally to the origin of cause. If I'm not mistaken, the rest of
    the argument from goes like this;

    "The only thing that could have caused the first action is a Deity."

    "Can you show me proof?"

    "..."

    The theory that I have laid out attempts to show cyclical (ie. no energy gained
    or lost) forces in the universe. Incidentally, physics as we know it regards
    time as a dimension, no different from 'up,' or 'east.' As such, there WAS in
    fact no time before the big bang. In fact, there was no, 'before,' at all...



    Injecting a Deity into the equation just brings up the same question; Where did
    the Deity come from? What was before it?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Cause and Effect...
    If the theory you laid demonstrates something cyclical, then something had to
    happen (outside of the cycle) to cause the Big Bang. What was that? And, how
    did that thing inject itself in a natural cycle? (Okay...) And, where did it
    come from?

    Doesn't your theory of the broken cycle violate some of the laws of
    thermodynamics? Based on all the best evidence as gathered from
    astrophysicists, doesn't all energy burn itself out?

    And, where in nature have we observed creation ex nihilio?

    All the best,
    Just Me.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Broken?
    Again, 'outside' is a spatial dimention. There is no, 'outside.'

    Yes, there is the law of entropy, which postulates that within a closed system,
    all the energy will eventually convert to heat, and dissapate to a uniform heat.
    That does not, however, destroy or create any energy at all. It's all still
    there. My hypothesis (and again, in all good conscience I must reiterate that I
    could very likely be wrong) postulates that time-reversed matter, or hyper-light
    matter, is headed towards the beginning of the universe, even as we head away
    from it.

    The universe seems to be a truly closed system, estimated at 900Ym, but after
    recent work in the field, it seems that the motion of the universe my truly be
    perpetual, both forward and backward in time...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Theories...What you posit (1)
    requires some amount of faith. You have to have faith that these elements were
    in existence at the right time in the right location. Further, your faith must
    grow to continue to the beginning of life. That is a LOT of Faith!

    Here our argument becomes cyclical. You have no proof, and I have no physical
    proof to offer you right here, right now. So, we must turn to philosophy.
    First, I put forward, Occam's Razor: "entities must not be multiplied beyond
    necessity", or in other words, the simplest explanation tends to be the best
    one.

    Which is simpler? Your theory, or any other theory out there explaining the Big
    Bang, but not explaining how everything came together for the Big Bang? Or, is
    it possible there is a creator? Let's just answer this. Which is a simpler
    explanation?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - In that case...
    Mine. In order to solve the cyclical argument, your solution is to insert the
    most powerful, intelligent, and complex entity imaginable. That would seem to
    be the most complex possible solution to the problem. Scientifically speaking,
    your solution has to be considered as a possibility, however remote. However,
    'proof' is a mathematical word, and cannot be used in any other scientific
    sense. Maybe 'evidence' would be the better thing to expound.

    I have a lot of evidence.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - So what you are saying...
    is that the simple solution is there was nothing in the great vacuum of
    nothingness, then something happened to create a Big Bang, and boom...our galaxy
    was forming...then over years the Earth cooled to the exact right temp to
    sustain life, it just happened that there is the exact correct amount of ozone
    in the atmosphere to sustain life, the earth is spinning at the exact speed
    necessary to sustain life, the earth is on the exact axis required to sustain
    life, the earth formed itself exactly the distance from the sun necessary to
    sustain life....all of this exactness randomly happened. If probability truly
    worked like this, then I would be a millionaire several times over because I
    would play the lottery every week!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - 6 Magic Numbers...
    Great book, that. One thing that I've never heard either scientists or
    creationists posit is something that seems obvious to me, but apparently
    everyone else misses (hey, I could be just wrong here, it must be admitted) is
    that while it seems that the universe is perfectly tuned to our existance, I
    rather think that maybe we are merely evolved to use what happens to be there.
    I often hear scientists talk about 'life as we know it,' and I find that rather
    strange. True, carbon chemistry is extremely rich, and liquid water is a great
    solvent, but I think life here uses both becuase we happen to have so much of
    them...it's not random, rather it is opportunistic.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - So your theory,,,
    of a closed energy system that never lost energy, that had an element intrude
    upon it from somewhere, causing the Big Bang, is simpler? I would have to begin
    to wonder where the closed energy system came from, where the intrusion on the
    system came from, why the intrusion....I have a LOT of questions about origins
    with this theory...it seems the simpler theory is a creator for the creation...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Language.
    I see what you mean about it seeming simpler. The way we have learned to speak
    makes things seem much simpler than they are, at times. Imagine, if you will,
    that you had to explain the creation story using only mathematics. Much more
    complicated, no?

    Or try to explain E=mc2 using words. Complexity is a term that is relative to
    the language being spoken. So, which origin would it be simpler to draw or
    animate?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Faith
    On faith; I must also take issue with the terminology here. What I have is a
    combination of curiosity and evidence. My way of experiencing the world is
    subject to alteration based on new and conflicting evidence. No faith involved,
    just ideas, which change as I learn and test.

    Essentially, I know what it would take to prove any theory I've laid out wrong.
    One verified fossil chihuahua in the precambrian strata, evolution by natural
    selection would have to be entirely re-vamped.

    One verified massive particle accelerating past light speed, relativity is
    wrong.

    Now, what would disprove your theory?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - What you posit (2)
    Requires a great amount of faith as I mentioned before. Expounding on this, to
    my knowledge, we have never been able to recreate anything near the conditions
    of the beginning of the Earth. We have tried, but we have failed. Also, we have
    never created something out of nothing. If I remember correctly all attempts to
    create life or matter has either failed (the sheep) or caused a great deal of
    fear (the nuclear accelerator that would create a black hole). So, there is a
    lot of faith embedded in your theory, especially in light of the fact that we
    can't use the same elements mentioned in the Big Bang theory to create anything.
    We can change and mold what is already there, but we can not create something
    from...nothing...which you say was there in the beginning (and end according to
    your theory).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nothing...
    No, we have never created something out of nothing. Science holds that to be
    impossible. The theory I posited does not do that, either; the motion is
    perpetual. Time...hard to explain here...'rotates' would be the best word.

    The sheep was alive, the LHC is running now without any black holes, and the
    conditions of early Earth biology are being studied by Prof. Robert Hazen, a
    crystalographer, who has already shown experimentally that proteins
    spontaneously emerge in those conditions. If he can show the emergence of a
    catalist (possibly RNA, as a hypothesis) he will have agruably started a system
    that can self-replicate with variations, which is all that is needed to start
    evolution. None of this is faith...it is what we are currently doing.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Answering your questions...(1)
    Christians and Jews both believe that the Deity is God (Yahweh..sorry to my
    Jewish friends for printing the name). He is the Uncaused Cause. In as much as
    your theory is difficult to understand, wrap your head around that one. He
    always has been, always is, and always will be. Christians believe in the triune
    God, that is 1 God in 3 persons (The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit). We know
    that before the beginning of the Earth, God was in company with Himself (Genesis
    1, and John 1). I am using Genesis as a historical Jewish text, and John 1 also
    as a historical text - we can explore this if you want.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Historical
    At this point, I have to give the historicity of the bible the same credence I
    give to, say, the Illiad. Based in some actual events does not validate the
    entire text. James Clavell's 'Shogun' was based on an actual set of people, in
    an actual place, doing things that really happened. I learned a great deal from
    it. However, that does not preclude the fact that it was fiction, set in
    historical events. I have no doubt that Judaism came out of Egypt. In fact, I
    have good reason to believe that the Moses story contains quite a lot of truth,
    and can be learned from. I do not, however, see any reason to take it as
    verbatum, plain-text truth.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Speaking of historicity...
    There are only about 643 copies available to study of the Iliad. Homer lived in
    about 900 B.C. The earliest known copy of the Iliad written was about 400 B.C.,
    500 years after the original telling. With the Old Testament, we have the
    Massoretic Texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), both tested for accuracy. There
    are more copies of these texts, but is the historicity less valid than that of
    the Iliad? I say no. The evidence is overwhelming in favor of the historicity
    of the OT.
    The New Testament (NT) blows the OT away. The earliest known copies are found
    to be written within 60 years of the original time, and there are more than
    24,000 copies in existence. This evidence is overwhelming (and scientific, at
    least about the document age and accuracy).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - By that estimate....
    ...the grand-winner on the accuracy scale would be the quran. They have the
    original copy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Answering your Questions (2)
    I would also like to point out that your use of "Deity" philosophically,
    through a priori argument, assumes that "Deity" exists. I know you use
    it as a point of reference, but the use itself claims the existence of the
    Being. This is the first philosophical argument, the Ontological Argument - God
    is that which no greater can be conceived.
    We can continue throwing science around about creation, but eventually it will
    boil down to philosophy because you and I will continue to ask for proof. We
    must turn to other areas...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Ontology
    Of course. The ontological argument is one I've seen, and it's easily bested as
    follows;

    Efficiency is a desirable attribute. The most efficient things accomplish more
    work with less energy. The most efficient thing possible is to accomplish all
    possible work with no energy. The most efficient Deity imaginable would create
    the universe while not even accomplishing the work of maintaining existance in
    any time frame. This would be the thing than which no greater thing can be
    conceived.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Okay, maybe I took a...
    wrong turn somewhere. Your premise "the most efficient thing possible is to
    accomplish all possible work with no energy" then turns to the
    conclusion,"...create the universe while not even accomplishing the work of
    maintaining existence in any time frame"...What is the correlation of energy
    and maintaining existence and time frame?

    Using your 3rd premise of accomplishing all possible work with no energy can
    explain Creation, and does not deny the conclusion the most efficient Deity
    would create the universe while not expending energy...a little change in the
    wording to agree with the premise.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Existance
    Existance requires energy. If we take it in quantum theory, an atom consists
    essentially of condenced energy, which is held together to form sub-atomic
    particles. The only thing that can essentially exist IS in fact energy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - But again...
    I must ask; what would disprove your theory?



    I use 'Deity' as a means of speaking of your belief system while maitaining
    respect for your sensibilities. This posits my understanding of what you
    believe, and my unwillingness to offend. Mentioning something does not mean
    that it exists, or I think we'd all mention Jessica Rabbit a whole lot more ;)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Disproof is ...
    That there is no Deity. To prove the negative, we would have to reach beyond
    our own understanding and knowledge, something not yet possible. So, your next
    move is to state that I can not disprove the theory or hypothesis that a Deity
    exists, not being able to disprove a theory nullifies the theory...Yet the same
    argument can be made for evolution and creation of the universe... sure there
    are mathematical possibilities, but there is not a method yet to disprove these
    theories.
    Plenty of scientists and lay people alike still accept macro-evolution, can it
    be disproved? Not yet, so does this mean that macro-evolution is out? People
    are still searching for the missing link, so I think that some still hold the
    theory valid. I am not using the population to "prove" my argument, I
    just mention this by way of example.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Disproof
    Evolution can quite EASILY be disproven! The classical example is; one fossil
    rabbit in the precambrian strata. That none has been found does not prove
    evolution, but does lend credence to the theory (an important word; a theory
    must explain all available facts, and have NO known disproofs extant - a hard
    thing to achieve. This is different than hypothesis, which is an idea which has
    not yet been tested thouroughly enough to acieve theory status).

    On missing links; this is a common gripe of creationists, who do not understand
    that species do not suddenly change from one to another, but rather alter slowly
    over time. Every individual that survives to reproduce is, in fact, a link.
    You have never seen an adult of any species, who has reproduced, that is NOT a
    link!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Can be, but hasn't...
    yet been disproven....Just because you and I don't have evidence, YET, that
    there is no Deity, doesn't mean that there is no disproof for the theory....just
    like your example...the Deity theory can be disproven, and as far as you and I
    know, may have already been, but dead people tell no tales, now do they?

    What evolutionists fail to understand is that commonalities among species may
    not point to a common ancestor, but to a common creator. I refer back to your
    discussion of chicken having a teeth gene. Might this also not be a
    possibility?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Fair enough
    I'll admit the possibility, but I have to consider a few things about it's
    liklihood.

    There are bad designs in nature. There are organs and structures that simply do
    not do the job they were intended to do, or do them very poorly. Or are prone
    to catastrophic failure, with no way to heal. I wonder, therefore, if we are
    designed, have we been designed to fail? And how could that be seen as good
    design? And what about vestigal structures? We have vestigal tails, and
    vesigal muscles with which to wag them, why?

    Evolutionarily speaking, this all makes perfect sense. Design? There's a lot
    of explaining to do!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - An after thought on possibility
    I just realized that I have to admit the possibility of creation, whatever I
    think about it's likelihood...I'm wondering then, if you don't have to admit the
    possibility of billions of years of evolution. And perhaps we both have to
    admit the possiblility that we're in the Matrix, and that those weird, Grey
    aliens programmed this matrix as a training simulator for capture-and-probe
    operations in the real world. Or maybe the possibility that satanism is right;
    that the creation story is accurate, and that all the suffering and error in the
    world is due to the creating deity being a sadistic prankster.

    These are all possibilities, and I have to admit them all as possibilities. Do
    you?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Beginnings LOL
    Let us consider THE BEGINNING without God.
    NOTHING, that is precisely what we will always get without God. You do not have
    uniformity without Intelligence to make it so. You must deny God as The Creator
    of His Creation in order to do that and then you would have nothing without
    anything and we would not be here now. God is mysterious and unlimited but God
    is Love and out of the expression of His Love He Created Us specifically to have
    a close relationship with Him as Adam and Eve did in THE BEGINNING. You see, if
    you take away BILLIONS OF YEARS and add the times table that God gave us in The
    Holy Bible we have a real starting point. We think we are so smart that we have
    all this great intelligence but Solomon said that there is nothing new under the
    sun and much knowledge has been lost and forgotten by man. Did you know there
    were batteries 5000 years ago? Hmm, did you know that if you base things with a
    half-life of the ea...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Tree rings
    The biblical timeline is disproven conclusively by the science of
    dendrochronology, which counts tree rings, and can be used to date, accurately
    to the nearest year, up to over 11,000 years before we see gaps in the tree
    record. Antarctic ice-core samples can show the annual ice-pack layers up to
    sever hundred thousand years. Simply put, grade 1 addition disproves the 6,000
    year biblical history conclusively.

    And you seem to think that you're so smart, as well. The most recent research
    into time theory shows time as a physical direction, like, 'in,' or, 'south.'
    It has an actual, spherical shape. So, what part of a circle is it's beginning?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - The Word of God Endures Forever
    Col.2:8 See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves
    captive by his so called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle
    fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's idea of the
    material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the
    rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the
    teachings of] Christ (the Messiah). By the way, the letter to the church at
    Colossae was written about A.D. 60 or 61 and is obviously relevant to this day!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - In other words...
    ...check your brain at the door, and believe harder.

    I'm sorry, C. but that just doesn't work for me...too much capacity for abuse.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Luke 9:56 Jesus came to save lives not destroy the
    1Cor.1:18-21 For the preaching of the cross

    is to them that perish

    foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is
    written, I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND WILL BRING TO NOTHING THE
    UNDERSTANDING OF THE PRUDENT. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is
    the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased
    God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews
    require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ
    crucified,unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But
    unto them which are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
    the wisdom of God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hmm...
    I'm really not getting what you're saying here, other than that I should stop
    thinking and believe. I'm pretty sure that I've already said that I'll believe
    when my thoughts are proven wrong.

    And while we're on this, I might as well add that I don't take whatever the
    bible says on it's own say-so. Again, too much capacity for people to hold a
    book in front of thier faces while they go through thier lives. No matter how
    accurate any book is, you have to look up from it to cross the street.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Matt.16:17-19
    People are made in the Image of God. God is Who all of our enlightenment and the
    ability to comprehend comes from. God is greater than man in all things(ability,
    knowledge, resources, strength, speech, love, understanding, works...). God, in
    every aspect (intellectually, physically, emotionally, spiritually...) is
    outside of the reach of man. There is Only One Way (Jn.14:6) to come to a saving
    knowledge of Him and that is to turn from unbelief and put faith in Jesus Christ
    as your personal Lord and Saviour!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I love antitheists answers to these questions. They are all placed after
    everything was made. His position is that all this stuff has always been here
    and simply recycles. This is held by the observations by astrophysicists
    obsverving the currently visible universe. What Antitheist does not have the
    capacity to understand is that all this stuff was called into existance at some
    point. Every last law that man discovers was created and placed into action by
    God. And He loves watching man use His mind and curiosity (that God gave us) to
    discover how this thing works. Even when man makes mistakes and had to go back
    and erase and change the theories placed forth so man can understand. God just
    loves it. Man is awesome.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Uh...
    ...this isn't your debate, Glen, so I feel no need to respond here.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Open board. You can feel free to discuss it elsewhere.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Glen, please..
    I am trying to engage Antitheist1 in a logical, adult debate. If I understand
    his position scientifically, socially and politically, maybe I can share my
    position in ways that he understands. I appreciate your passion, but this is
    between me and him.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - OK.
    Refute any of what I just said, SCIENTIFICALLY.



    Good luck.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Scientifically....
    Let us engage with your science that bases everything millions or billions of
    years ago. You have a half life of Billions of years and the real half-life of
    things is about 3000. Your radioactive dating methods took 3 volcanic ash
    testings and said they were all over 40 million years of age and one of them was
    a whole 50 years old. I would say that there is a flaw in your thought process
    by automatically basing things in a long long time ago period. God created the
    heavens and the earth in 6 days.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Citations, please!
    I would like to see this volcanic atomic decay dating mistake you refered to.
    Where did you hear about it, so I can see for myself?

    And see my above post on parallax measurements for your answer to the 6,000 year
    old heavens.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s glen  - Taunting
    Telling antitheist that he is sealed is not taunting! Telling him this
    frightens him. That is why he acts the way he does. If he really belived that
    God is a fairy tale he would simply laugh it off. As it is he reacts to it!
    Listen people. Here is an example. Now here is your challenge. Get Antithesit
    to REPENT! If you can then I am a liar! If you cannot then Hebrews 6 is a
    reality for you and Him. I will pubically repent on this site if Antitheist
    actually repents and accepts Jesus of Nazareth as his personal Lord and savior.

    If not, you guys get to see God's work alive and in action!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Just a little too strong
    Glen,

    Just a small critique, you have been a little heavy-handed with A1. #1 He says
    he was raised Messianic Jew, he never says he accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord,
    therefore, he has not lost redemption, right now he rejects it. #2 Just as much
    as Hebrews 6 applies, so does 1 Peter 3:verses 8-12, 15, and 18. One of his
    premises for rejecting anything religious is the "holier-than-thou"
    attitudes of the religious. We must present our case with meekness and fear
    (KJV) or gentleness and reverence (NASB).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Just me
    Yea i guess i have been heavy handed. Perhapse not the best. Nevertheless
    number 1 is not accurate. He has stated clearly the he was a believer for many
    years. Although I can see a stiuation where this is an action plan believer not
    a true Holy Spirit conversion beliver. Antitheists rejection is not due to the
    holier thean thou situation. It is something much more painful. It centers
    around not seeing God from what I can glean without know the person. I think
    anti has been in a situation where he demaned the sight of God because he
    thought himself worthy and nothing happened. Arrogance is rejected by God. Just
    my opinion here...I really don't know why.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sorry, G-man
    But you're dead wrong here. Religion had me convinced that I was so UNworthy
    that I might as well not exist. There was no universal love, just fear and
    guilt and extortion. Casting that aside is the only way I survived. No help
    came, so I had to step up and fix things without it. That, at least, worked.

    Demanded? No. Back then, who was I to even ask? Now I just do what I can for
    myself, and I've been much more successful. The guilt and fear are gone. I
    have hope, and the will to make it real. And noone to punish me for it.

    For those of you in those truly demented 'Fear and Guilt' cults - You CAN leave!
    Life is so much sweeter without!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I am certain you have stated that you were a believer. Is that untrue?

    As far as the unworthiness issue is concerned I understand this quite well.

    Sin is the punishment not God. Without Jesus' ransom you will be forever without
    God. Right now you have the restrainer preventing evil from over running your
    life. Later, there will be no restraining. Without the Spirit of God evil will
    devour you. This because you want it to be so. THis is not a threat, nor is it
    punishment. It is fulfilling your desire.

    Now becasue of Jesus who am I? i am God's son. And that gives me acces to Him
    directly.

    hmmm, unworthyness. this I can understand.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Um...no...
    Oh, don't worry, there was a time when I was more out of control than I care to
    admit. Noone brought me back to being a decent human being other than myself.
    I saw that what I was doing was wrong for myself, and I stopped doing it, with
    effort, admittedly.

    And how's about a little evidence of that direct line to the omniscient
    intelligence of the universe? How 'bout a Unified Field Theory? Or why does H.
    Pylori lead to enlarged-fold gastritis and stomach cancer in some, but not all
    people? What's a workable treatment for psychotic disorder?

    I notice that, just like people with direct-lines to aliens, people with direct
    lines to omniscient minds never get any useful information from them, only
    reiterations of moral ideas that have already been put forward.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Again you need Justification when non has been given. Men and thier chioce of
    independence from God and how He designed us to live is the problem. That
    chioce has lead to the detructive maladies you are refering to. God did not
    give us a justification for our own destruction of the entire creation. He gave
    us as a gift Deliverance. He redeemed us. He paid the price for our lack. I am
    really sorry you don't get that. And God gives much useful information to His
    Children. Just because you are not getting it does not mean you are not being
    given it. You simply refuse to listen to it.

    you still did not answer the question. Have you stated in other discussions that
    you were once a beliver?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - If...
    ...you mean that I was brainwashed into saying things I know now are simply not
    true, then yes, I was a believer. For a very long time, even asking a question
    would have had dire consequences for me. Well, those people have no power now.
    I'm still here.



    So you say you're getting 'useful' information? I'm curious, what information
    are you getting from the supernatural, Glen? Is there ANYTHING that I couldn't
    find in a hundred-year-old schoolbook?

    And you have not answered a great many of my questions, either!

    For the record, let's ask one more time;



    How do you justify having possessions when Jesus said repeatedly that you could
    not be his follower if you have them?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Sorry Fruity Anti....
    Listen up and listen good. You think that we are a cult. Are you stating that as
    an absolute because you claim that something is right and what do you proclaim?
    If you know what is right and wrong then what do you claim that you got that
    from? God is the only moral code and all the other processes of laws are ripped
    off from God's Commandments for ALL of us. The way I see it, you think might
    makes right due to the evolutionist point of view and the mightiest survive. God
    is Almighty and we are nothing without Him.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s villagetree  - Simple
    We are communal animals- our natural emotions give us our 'morals'. We love our
    children, we take care of our parents in illness, we bring food to our neighbors
    in need- because we are, sympathetic and compassionate animals.
    It's really that simple.

    Awhile back, I was watching a family of cardinals teaching their young to fly.
    The parents were somewhat outnumbered, as they'd had a large family that year.
    Soon, a single woodpecker landed near them on a branch- and joined in the
    training session. He sailed back and forth from branch to ground with the young
    ones- doing exactly what their parents were doing. He felt like helping and
    did;)

    Did he learn this from a book?

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Excellent example!
    I wouldn't have thought of that one. I hope I have permission to cite it?



    As to morality, I agree that our emotions play a great part in our ideas on
    correct ways of thinking, but I also note that those emotions do have a majour
    flaw, morally speaking;

    Our brains are capable of maintaining relationships with roughly 125 people,
    with more than that being relegated to the 'outsiders' category.
    Evolutionarily, that makes sense, but in our global era we need to be able to
    identify with many more than that if we are to attach emotions to the real
    results of our actions-one reason I keep bringing up larger-scale statistics.

    If we could identify emotionally with our actions on a global scale, I'm sure
    that things would look a lot different on this 'pale blue dot.'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Raeosunshine59  - more research
    After Constantine's death in 337, open dispute resumed again. Constantine's son,
    Constantius II, who had become Emperor of the eastern part of the Empire,
    actually encouraged the Arians and set out to reverse the Nicene creed. His
    advisor in these affairs was Eusebius of Nicomedia, who had already at the
    Council of Nicea been the head of the Arian party, who also was made bishop of
    Constantinople.

    Constantius used his power to exile bishops adhering to the Nicene creed,
    especially Athanasius of Alexandria, who fled to Rome. In 355 Constantius became
    the sole Emperor and extended his pro-Arian policy toward the western provinces,
    frequently using force to push through his creed, even exiling Pope Liberius and
    installing Antipope Felix II.

    As debates raged in an attempt to come up with a new formula, three camps
    evolved among the opponents of the Nicene creed. The first group mainly opposed
    the Nicene termino...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yes!
    If nothing else, you've shown the willingness to look. Now that you've shown
    knowledge of the historical record, the real question is, what does it all mean?
    What was happening there? And why?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Just Me-debate
    Yes, I've agreed to your debate as offered below. I do, however, ask that you
    agree to my terms before I begin (I'm just thinking you may not have seen my
    acceptance below, so please look).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Just-Me-Debate
    Agreed. Your terms are acceptable.

    Thank-you for this opportunity to discuss like adults belief systems. I think
    it will be enlightening for both of us and anyone else that cares to read. I
    responded, I just don't know if it was ever posted. I did recommend that we get
    alias emails at Yahoo or some other site just to protect home email accounts
    (and the requested anonymity). Do you agree?

    Where do you want to begin? I have read almost all of your posts, so I think I
    have a good idea where you stand on the whole evolution bit. I agree with a lot
    of it. Macro-evolution is out. Micro-evolution does exist and has been mostly
    proven.

    Shall we begin at the beginning? Where it all began...which is?

    Just Me
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yes.
    You can drop me a line @ ceevro@gmail.com . Include my cognomen in the
    subject line.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I suppose...
    ...I need to know where you stand!

    1) Do you believe the bible is literally true, or partially or entirely
    allegorical?

    2) What benefit do you see in religion that can be gained in no other way?

    3) What portion of your particular faith makes it stand out from the others? In
    other words, how far removed from your denomination would one have to be to be
    irretrevably doomed, and why?

    4) Why would you like to have an open discussion with someone who is diametricly
    opposed to religion in general?

    5) What evidence supports and (this is always a tougher question) opposes the
    theist philosophy, in your opinion?

    I think that's a good start.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Where I stand is...
    1) I believe the Bible is the true, inerrant Word of God, wholly inspired by the
    Holy Spirit as documented by men and women. Some of the teachings may be
    metaphorical, but the Bible itself is a true history.
    2) Religion isn't such of a benefit as practiced today. The original purpose of
    the gathering of people was to experience Christ (Matthew 18:20)and to encourage
    one another (1 Thess. 5:11). Not much is gained by modern "religion".
    Instead, I prefer relationship. Relationship is delving deeper with another. The
    first relationship is with Jesus, the second relationship is with other
    believers who agree with this point.
    3) Let's not confuse denomination with Christianity. There are several
    denominations in Christianity, and true believers in all, as well as
    non-believers and hypocrites. There are several religions, but one,
    Christianity, accepts 1 Creator, God, triune in personality, with God the Son
    being...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - My rebuttal...
    ...is up under your original posts below. Methinks the censors here take the
    weekend off, which is why the posts take so long to kick in.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Nate  - Awesome!
    Praise the LORD! Love your work, Ray!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Peace  - Meeting of the minds...
    Has anyone ever considered meeting someone where they are and loving them to
    where Christ wants them to be? I have read many posts here and some of them
    begin with logical thought but it amazes me that after a while most make a sharp
    detour at some point when the other party does not move to your way of thinking
    at the time you have exhausted your best arguements. Maybe it is time to stop
    at that point and pray before you make the person you are trying to lead to
    Christ more sure that your way is obviously a way they didn't and now absolutely
    don't wish to go. It is better to stop and leave them wanting more than to
    continue on to a point where they are plugging their ears. "For out of the
    abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"(Matthew 12:34). If your heart is
    filled with the Holy Spirit and the truth of the Word of God it will produce
    godly speech that brings life to the speaker as well as the listener.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I couldn't agree more!
    The issue at hand here is that noone has put forward much of an argument to me
    at all! I give respect to those people who have actually tried to see me as a
    person (Char, Just Me, Professor of History, Dave) and honestly tried to tell me
    something they feel is important. People like that give me hope. They are the
    type of people I would be proud to call friends.



    There is a rule in business, however, that is worth considering; a satisfied
    customer tells a friend. A dissatisfied customer tells 8 friends.



    Essentially, one bad experience does more harm than 10 good experiences can
    correct.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Peace  - Meeting of the Minds...
    I have had more than my fair share of bad experiences in church, and it sounds
    like you have too. I think the difference is that I do not blame God for the
    free will that He gave each of us out of love. I realize churches are made up of
    foulable people just like me and are hospitals for sinners not hangouts for
    saints. I too have friends that I have had to distance myself from because the
    church that they attend says that if you were not baptised there you are going
    to hell and I don't want to stand that close to very close to them on on their
    day of reconning. I feel pain for yours and anyone elses bad experience at the
    hands of someone weilding their form of "justice" instead of weilding
    the sword of the Spirit wearing the breast plate of rightiousness. So many
    people speak what they feel is truth without checking thier references and
    making sure what they say and the advice they give lines up with the Word of
    ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Peace
    ...God.



    Speaking of the Word of God, I posted yesterday in reference to your post
    regarding Luke 14:26, but I obviously hit the wrong key, the post never showed
    up. I asked what the translation from the original text says. In the version
    you use it says hate. However, it does not mean hate in the literal sense in
    today's English. I would like to submit that the actual meaning is to turn
    away, to not let the beliefs or directions of other people that you love or even
    one's old self stand in the way of being a Christ follower.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hate
    There are indeed many ways to translate many of the words in the bible. For
    example, 'neighbor' as used in 'Love thy neighbor' refers only to Jewish
    neighbors. In fact, there has been a frightening ongoing debate about legal
    issues in ultra-conservative circles in which some people are trying to prove
    that non-jews are non-human. Again, I find this type of reasoning appalling,
    but it seems that most religions have clauses to that effect.

    That said, 'turn away,' or 'hate,' or 'abandon,' is not what I would call
    healthy for anyone involved. I would never recommend that ANYONE abandon his
    children.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Fair enough.
    Thank you.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave  - Antitheist1 - cont'd
    Eventually they returned to Canada and this is where I joined up with them in
    Vancouver. I listened to John speak about his conversion and the more I heard,
    the more I wanted to know this Jesus. (the fact that they gave me a place to
    sleep in their small basement suite further cemented the idea in my head).
    Fast forward about a week and I was looking for an apartment I could afford...
    it was now about 2200hrs and I was feeling pretty dejected... my father had
    disowned me, I didn't have a home of my own to go to, I was tired and hungry, I
    had quit my job in order to spend all of my time with John, I didn't want to
    return to the drugs and alcohol, but... so I decided to see if this whole 'God
    thing' really worked.
    I found a secluded place in an old schoolyard and laid down on the grass... I
    was too tired to kneel... and prayed, it was a very simple prayer...
    "God" I said... "if you're there... prove it". I lai...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave  - Antitheist1 - cont'd
    When I met with John it was at first awkward... for me... not so much for him...
    he was REALLY HAPPY! to see me?!? As the evening progressed he told me about how
    he and his wife were found sleeping on the streets in Zurich. Helen was very
    sick and should have been hospitalized but they had no money, so they slept on
    the sidewalk (which really wasn't fashionable in those days) hoping that she
    would get better... a small group of Christians on the way home from an evening
    service stumbled upon them and took them home. They nursed Helen back to health
    over the course of several weeks. During this time they also taught John and
    Helen the basic premise of the Christian faith... of course John and Helen had
    by this time seen it in action and were convinced it was something they too,
    would like to be a part of. They accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour and
    were baptized. They remained with this group over the next few months, lear...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave  - Antitheist1 cont'd
    What I can tell you about is my own personal journey...
    35 years ago I was a rebellious, drug-smoking, alcoholic wasteland (you'll find
    a large percentage of Christians come from this same type of background, but
    you'll find plenty more that were just simple ordinary folk... we've all had to
    walk our own paths). I returned to work one night, still dazed from the 3 hits
    of Mescaline I had taken two days earlier when I "heard" a voice saying
    'go find John'... when I say I 'heard', I don't know if it was an actual audible
    voice or if I sensed it... whatever it was, it was POWERFUL! I also
    instinctively knew that the John I was supposed to find was an old enemy of mine
    whom I had spent many, many hours fighting with - knock 'em' down, drag 'em out
    hardcore, kickin', slammin' 'n' scratchin' fights. The command was so powerful
    that when I returned home the next morning I reached for the Bible my
    grandmother had given me b...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave  - Antithesist1
    Your observations concerning the history of Christianity are bleak but
    understandable.
    Over the centuries a great deal of what has been done in the name of Christ has
    been wrong - the parallels also, between Christianity, Islam and other major
    religions are plainly there for all to see.
    Even today, people claiming to be Christians are the 'enemies of Christ'...
    witness the atrocities in Bosnia for example. On the surface, Christianity
    doesn't seem to have a very good track record... then when you read the Bible
    you are left to wonder... how can God be 'good'? Why must a 6-year old die a
    horrible death? Why did God, not only allow, but actually command genocidal acts
    against other nations? If God stated that His commands were to be kept 'for all
    time'... why then do Christians today disregard them?
    It is good to question, God isn't threatened by our need to investigate and
    understand - He is the One who gave us this abi...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Dave  - What is missing here...
    ...is love. Antithesis, I have read this blog from the beginning and I am DEEPLY
    ASHAMED by the many here who claim Christianity as their domain - yet attack,
    provoke, taunt and slander you.
    To Glen in particular - STOP what you're doing, you've become a fool and NOTHING
    that you have written bears any semblance to the teachings of Christ that you so
    brazenly proclaim - did Jesus taunt those who questioned Him? Did He gleefully
    rub His hands together while proclaiming them to be swine and happily anticipate
    their future in hell? What's the matter with you?!? Get out of here and study
    your bible, learn humility - when you have something to offer other than your
    own profane ramblings... study it again... learn to pray, learn to do as Christ
    did... I don't recall Jesus ever teaching us to proclaim a man as being evil
    because he was of a differing opinion
    Col. 3:12 Therefore, as God
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Hello Dave, nice letter. I know that I am in a blattle with Anti. I do find a
    lot of fun watching him run in circles but I do not taunt him. It saddens me
    greatly that he is sealed. My words directed in this matter are to confront the
    sin. Obviously to no avail as he is not salvagable BY HIS OWN DEEDS. Not minie.
    No onwe can be turned until they are confronted. No one. I conofront His
    directly! Calling me a fool is also against Bible rules so it is not only me
    that is affected by this man. Also if me bieng a fool towards this man prevents
    people from reading his crap then so be it. Exposure to Satan's lies gets the
    sheep into trouble. If my actions prevent that great! I am doing a good
    service. If telling someone that they cannot be brought back to repentance is
    not in the teachings plaese read Hebrews. I am beggin you. Man is not evil
    because of a difference in opinions. manis evil becasue he chooses to be evil.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Battle!
    You're waging it wonderfully, Glen! You've sure shown me!



    Now, what is it that you've actually accomplished in this heroic struggle of
    yours? You've not only not changed my mind, but in many cases proven to me that
    there needs to be someone here like me who is willing to debate against
    impossible odds (yes, Glen, debating you on anything is impossible; you are
    quite expert in plugging your ears and shouting over and over to drown out what
    you don't wanna hear, like many 2-year-olds). You haven't presented your case,
    just asserted that you're right. What are you attempting to do?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    You are also as good at plugging your ears so that arguement is really
    powerful.

    And you still have not repented and will not due to the essence in Heb:6. And I
    am NOT trying to get you there. It is impossible! When God says it's impossible
    and gives the reason, one should pay attention. It is impossible.

    I simply stand against you and the powers controlling you that is all.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sigh...
    There are no supernatural powers controlling me, Glen. Again, I'm not a demon,
    I'm an atheist.

    And on the subject of impossibility, that's one of the nearly universal features
    of religions; eternal damnation for apostatism. In Mormonism, it's called a
    'blood sin.' This type of sin cannot be forgiven unless the person who
    committed it is murdered (it still happens, and often). In Buddhism, anyone who
    attempts difficult meditations and gives up are irrevokably blocked from
    Nirvana. In Raelianism, the aliens have embedded technologies that register
    when you've finished their e-book, and you get banned from the list of people
    who might be cloned indefinitely if you don't immediately become a Raelian. And
    in Islam...you don't want to know what the prescribed punishment is.

    So how do you know YOUR version is the right one?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    you ask this question repeatedly without end even when answered well. No answer
    will satisfy your thirst.

    BUT your very existance is the very proof I currently see to verify the truth
    that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    Aside from the other more meaningful ones.

    So how do I know? This is the question asked even of Jesus whilst He was here.
    Did you know that? Do you know the answer He has given to this question?

    Since you complain about ME not reading I insist on you reading. Find it since
    you are so much more educated in the word than I am. If you do then you will
    know the answer. If not then remain right where you are.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Prophets...
    ...are identified by things they say coming true, according to the bible. I saw
    the US economy collapsing years before it did. I told several people, who
    didn't believe me. Does that make me a prophet?

    And you still haven't answered. Existence is proof of existence, nothing more.
    The Etiological viewpoint is a means of understanding, not a verification of
    reality.

    And since you have refused to look up what I've asked you to, I'll return the
    favour. Quote your own sources, or don't expect me to find them for you.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Taunting...
    "Anti your a cook! I think you are on too many hallucinogens yourself. Your
    post is nothing but a lie to start and comically bad at that!"

    and,

    "ANd you are still a cook! Beleive the web, funny, funny man!"

    and,

    "Sorry Oh hateful one."

    and,

    "I am of the position to say, "May the Lord rebuke you." and

    just let you fester in your works."



    Yeah, Glen. You haven't said ANYTHING to me that might be taken as hurtful, or
    taunting, or arrogant at all! I at least admit to the fact that I take as hard
    a stand with you as you have with me. And I back up what I say.



    Thus, backed up once again by YOUR WORDS, I submit that you, Glen, are a liar.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    This is not taunting! If you are hurt by words that direct your attention to
    God then you are hypocritical at best. You are the one that believe God is a
    fairy tale and as such does not exist. Hence this type of referal is empty and
    has no authority. "Oh hateful one" yeah that is just fun and games.
    Sorry it hurt you. I guess you are more vulnerable than I thought. Even Paul
    turn over some of his followers to Satan so they may learn what it means to
    repent. That is all I say to and about you. It is speaking action into your
    life. Taunting is much more childish than these things.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No hurt taken.
    Sorry. You just don't have the power to hurt me, G-man. You are still evading
    the hard questions. I find that cowardly. I ask you a question, and you skip
    it to remind me that you think I'm going to be tortured for all eternity. Is
    that your way of dealing with questions you don't want to answer? Claim the
    questioner is possessed?

    Perhaps I was more trying to direct your attention to something than you were
    trying to direct me...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh, and...
    ...this was by far my favorite Glenism;



    "By the way, I would no more ask for your involment in any good works I do
    than I

    would ask say Osama Bin Laden."



    Beautiful sentiment, Glen. I ask you, have you ever talked a suicidal person
    that you have never met off the bridge they were attempting to work up the guts
    to jump off? I have, and not in the line of my profession. How would you
    react? Honestly tell them that their rejection of the life god gave them means
    they're going to hell regardless of what they do? Goodness is not defined by
    what you believe, but what you actually do. Can you not see the logic here?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Wow wonderfully bent.

    I am glad to hear you have successfully stopped a jumper. Good work!

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Bent?
    I think that was about as straight as I could be...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Peace  - Peace be with you...
    Glen, you give reference to books of the Bible, but not direct scripture
    reference. Here is one that I think that you need to take a look at as well as
    a few other people who say much but cite little of relevance. My brother I
    respectfully rebuke you. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Just 'cause Glen don't like homework...
    The scripture listed here is as follows:



    "16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
    correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be
    thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2Tim 3:16-17, NIV.



    Fair enough. Now, which scripture is it that you intend to use to prove that
    there were no dinosaurs, or that distances measured by paralax (triangulation
    using earth's 6-month change in solar position) as being more than 10 million
    light years (ie. more than 10 million year old light) really show that creation
    is only 6000 years old?



    The bible cannot be literally true. Please, prove me wrong if you can!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Confused
    What does this have to do with the price of beans in China?



    I am not being mean by this. I simply see no relevance? if you have a specific
    point then tell me.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Thanks, Dave.
    Yes, I'll admit that I've resorted to some pretty harsh commentary, primarily
    out of frustration, when I've asked questions and seen nothing more than a
    skirting of the answer. Is it really so hard for a theist to say they don't
    know, or they were wrong, or they were only partly right, or they hadn't thought
    about it that way? Is there truly so much fear of atheists that we need to be
    attacked, publicly ridiculed, threatened, and even denied employment for our
    non-beliefs (all this has happened to me, and more)? I mean, why the fear? Why
    the attack? I've defined what disturbs me about religion, and my motives for
    being here. I've been honest, and at least looked where I've been directed by
    theists.

    Perhaps that's why 'utopian' experiments never work; some people just can't
    bring themselves to act in a better way.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tabitha  - encouragement brother
    I am again amazed at God's love 4 us. It is few that can understand That God
    would love an atheist so much He would allow such a tragedy as 9/11 to get u 2
    Him. Please do not take the burden of those deaths upon yourself in some way
    but realize that God loves u beyond all human comprehension. So glad I will
    meet u in heaven some day, Andre
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - WHAT?
    I cannot believe what I just read here! GOD LOVES US SO MUCH THAT HE WOULD LET
    OTHER PEOPLE WHO ALSO BELIVE IN GOD KILL US SO WE MIGHT KNOW HOW MUCH HE LOVES
    US? I'm utterly aghast! I'm FLOORED! Even Ray Comfort can't find a rational
    justification for the suffering god causes (even though he quickly dismisses it,
    saying it must be good, somehow), but YOU...how do I even start?

    9-11 proved to me, and many other atheists, that religion is not just bothersome
    to us, but dangerous! Lethal, in fact! 9-11 showed me beyond any shadow of a
    doubt that religion must be opposed with all the ferocity of an invading army,
    because invading armies is what it inevitably leads to.

    Your god, if said deity exists,knew the killing was coming and allowed that
    killing to take place, even though he could have stopped it with no danger to
    himself. That makes him every bit as guilty as the guy flying the plane.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Start your research!
    The first person to translate the oldest known copies of scripture wrote a book
    that contended that the bible was a coded reference to mixing mushrooms for
    hallucenogenic experiences. The Vatican owns all his copyrights, and refuses to
    ever let anyone read his material.

    At the council of Nycaea, all references to jesus as a man were expunged from
    the bible, as well as any reference to rulers not being absolute, and divinely
    mandated. The council was headed by...oh, check for yourself!

    The KING JAMES VERSION refers to an actual person. C'mon! LOOK! Why would he
    put out a version of the bible, and mass-circulate it at great expense
    (interestingly, this was the first mass use of the printing press!)?



    No god required for any of this!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Anti your a cook! I think you are on too many hallucinogens yourself.

    Your post is nothing but a lie to start and comically bad at that!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Make your claim...
    ...but prove me wrong. I think it's your turn, G-man! Just saying that what
    I've said is a lie don't make it so. Look up the following terms using your own
    devices:



    1. jesus mushroom

    2. council of Nycaea

    3. King James



    Come back, then tell me how what I said was a lie. You can't disprove me just
    by asserting that I'm wrong. Oh, and cite references.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Citations
    NO! Life is not fair, remember?



    Find your own references.



    ANd you are still a cook! Beleive the web, funny, funny man!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I will not...
    ...do your research for you. Laziness on your part shows your inability or
    unwillingness to actually learn about the person you are "doing battle"
    with. This is a sure-fire way to defeat.

    And yes, I am a cook! I worked as a line-cook at an upscale restaraunt through
    my early college days. Best steak you ever had would be cooked by me.

    I've read everything you've sent to me to read. I've tried the actions you
    prescribed. Are you unwilling to engage them on equal terms? Or are you afraid
    of what you might find?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Start Your Research
    As to your first claim about the book of mushrooms, I am still researching.

    The Nicaean Council, I am assuming you are referring to the first in 325 did not
    expunge all references to Jesus as man, instead it confirmed the deity of Jesus
    as fully man and fully God. The Council was actually headed by Constantine, but
    he allowed the Bishops to make all decisions. The biggest reason for this
    Council was the threat of the Arians who were the ones denying the deity of
    Jesus. None of the 20 canons instituted during this Council spoke specifically
    of "ruler", your word, but leaders and members of the church. The
    canons discussed how to become a leader of the church (Catholic) and how lay
    members were to be allowed membership. It was an attempt to unite the Empire
    through one theological doctrine, instead of the many that had developed.

    Bibliography
    Athanasius, Defense of the Nicene Council; Eusebius, The Li...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Good work, let's continue...
    So, what was the reason for Constantine's conversion to christianity, and what
    was the very first thing he did with that conversion?



    I'm not in agreement with the idea that the bishops made all the decisions.
    Constantine directly told them what he wanted, and let them work out the
    details. Specifically, he wanted the doctrines that specifically told people
    that a personal relationship with god needed no organized group expunged (gospel
    of Thomas, for example) along with any reference to mysticism, as practiced by
    the Arians.



    How then, did he go about enacting this change?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Continuing with Constantine, his conversion
    was purported to come about by a dream. The dream disturbed him so much he
    sought out a Christian to ask if the person saving him in his dream was Christ.
    The dream altered his life; some historians equate it to a Paul-like
    conversion.

    Because he was not raised in the Faith, he did not know what to do. So, what he
    did do was what he did best, he organized. He called the Church fathers
    together and learned from them. He also saw the disorganization of the
    "Church" at that time and sought, through the Nicaean Council, to
    organize the Church. A man's design on God's creation, yes it was flawed, but
    better, according to historians, than what had been occurring. Most of the
    records of the minutes from the Council of 325 were destroyed because of
    arguments and so forth, so the best we have is the verbal tradition that has
    been passed down. A tradition that in the time of Constantine was strong. The
    rest of m...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - The first...
    ...thing that Constantine did was to direct his soldiers to paint crosses on
    thier shields before going into battle. While that has no bearing on the
    overall truth of belief, I do find they symbolism rather poignent.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Raeosunshine59  - Research complete
    Antitheist1--

    I have looked into the council of Nycaea and you are mistaken about what
    happened at their first meeting. Arius and his followers believed that Jesus
    was merely a creation of God and some how not equal to God. The remaining
    council members believed otherwise and declared Jesus to be the begotten son of
    God, not made. The council did not invent the doctrine of the deity of Christ as
    is sometimes claimed. Instead, the council affirmed and defined what it had
    found to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is; that Christ
    is the one true God in Deity with the Father.
    The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I did not...
    ...say that the council invented the officially held dogma of today. What they
    did was vote on it, with a dictator sitting at the head of the table. My main
    point here is that the vote could have easily gone the other way, especially if
    the Emperor of Rome had thought it was politically expedient. The contents of
    the bible were edited accordingly.

    And it did not have the desired unifying effect. Almost immediately the
    enforced control of people's beliefs lead to division and war, which has gone on
    pretty much unabated to this day. We've all seen churches go through splits,
    right? How often do we see amalgamations?

    But to continue, who was King James?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - ooo I Love this argument
    What passages about Jesus are you specifically referring to? I am curious and
    would like to read those myself.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Read...
    ...the entire gospel. Virtually everything jesus taught in it has been expunged
    from the teachings of christianity, because it is inconvenient, or tells people
    they shouldn't be rich. There's even a specific condemnation of preachers who
    wear flowing robes, have finery, and expect to be treated with esteem in thier
    communities. Furthermore, jesus DID NOT invalidate the old testament law, as
    christians seem to think, he made it more difficult than ever!

    What he DID NOT DO was add any knowledge that actually helped anyone. Coulda
    said something about slavery...nothing. Coulda told doctors about
    hand-washing...nothing. Coulda maybe given women some sort of equal
    rights...nope. Coulda expounded on the evils of borders, and maybe ended wars
    between nations...nope.



    But hey, he used miracle spit on a blind guy!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Nice mix of truth and lies. I do agree that these fineries worn by some to
    direct esteem and respect towrd self is biblically incorrect. I also agree that
    many putative sects of Christianity have omitted or plainly ignored certain
    aspects laid out in truth. You are right that Jesus did not invalidate the law
    He laid down. Your wrong about making it harder. He made it so simple even a
    child can understand. Jesus made ten comandments Two. This is a
    simplificatiomn not a complication. Jesus came to divide the world and He has
    been explicit about that and He has done exactlty that. Women were given equal
    rights. I really like the miracle spit. It demonstrates who he is. I am ever
    so glad you have seen truth in this action. But you have wholey rejected it.
    There is Your problem. Not that it'll make any difference.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...so...
    ...jesus didn't come to save mankind from their sin, but to create war and
    division? There was NOTHING said about giving women equal rights (I may be
    wrong here, but hey, where's your reference?) which is why there have been so
    many female church leaders over the centuries, eh? And jesus DID make it
    harder! Among criteria for going to heaven, if you actually read the book
    you're extolling, are having NO posessions, hating everyone you know, including
    yourself, and being, "more righteous of the pharasees and sadducees."
    Tough, that one.



    Got two cents to rub together? You aren't going to heaven. Love your mother?
    Pearly gates are shut to you. Got a hand that's causing you to sin? Eternal
    torture is your lot.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Again and again
    Over and over the same wall. All those listed items are not true and I really
    don't care to try to correct you anti-theist. You are sealed. So nothing I say
    can sway you. I only offer truth to the ones reading so they will not follow
    you.

    Women are co-heirs with men. Both will be like angels. There is your equality.
    But you're gonna fight with some scripture that says women should not teach men.
    bla, bla. of course they should not. But you'll never get that. It is
    segration to you.

    Eternal torture is not the lot of those that know why Jesus came. And so that
    you'll now--PAY ATTENTION--Jesus came to break the power of Satan not humans.
    Humans are captives, Satan is the jailer. Jesus destroyed the power of the
    jailer. Wake up.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Well then...
    I'll be getting back to this one with each scripture written out in detail, so
    that you can see for yourself what was promised for the above mentioned crimes.

    And you really think that women shouldn't teach men? Again, are you serious?
    Yes, to me inequality IS segregation! And it is wrong! I've had many teachers
    that were women and, scripture be damned, they were excellent teachers.

    Methinks that you are now entering the realm of biggotry, G-man. Before, I
    thought you were just brain-washed. Now you tell me that my wife, who trains
    nurses of both sexes to work in her field of palliative home care, should not be
    allowed to do so. That is beyond the pale, G-man. You are endorsing sexism,
    and even you must admit that that is wrong. Re-think what you just promoted.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - War and Division...
    I said that jesus came to bring war. Here's the quote from YOUR so-called holy
    book, with citation.

    "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace,
    but a sword."

    Matt 10:34



    There is nothing about your religion that is peaceful, jesus said himself,
    according to the bible.

    Don't worry, G-man, I'm gunna keep educating you as to what this book that you
    seem never to have actually read really says.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - Riches.
    Here we go on why it is that you, who have more than 80% of the world's
    population, are going to hell, regardless of what you believe:

    "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of
    a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matt
    19:24, KJV

    AND

    "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one
    thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt
    have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22



    Got stuff? You have nothing in heaven. Do you believe what you say you believe
    enough to give all you have to the poor (logging on here proves you wouldn't
    give up your internet access)?

    I make the case that you don't believe what you preach enough to do a thing
    about it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - Hate your mother.
    Your deity told you to! You are also destined to go to hell if you don't.



    "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and
    children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
    disciple." Luke, 14:26, KJV

    "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he
    cannot be my disciple." Luke, 14:33, KJV

    Thus, if you love your family, you can't follow jesus. If you have anything
    with which to provide for them, you aren't christian.

    C'mon Glen! Tell the whole world about how much you hate your mother! jesus
    told you to! Would you disappoint him?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - Left hand shame.
    So, which body parts have caused you to sin in the past? Ever looked at a
    lovely lady and pictured her in the buff? Ever snuck a cookie? Ever uttered a
    bad word? It's all OK! Break out that machete, and let's get the sin-removal
    on!

    "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It
    is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go
    into hell." Matt 5:30, NIV

    Still got all those body-parts, Glen? If your bronze-age book is infallible,
    you gotta sin-ectomy coming, or you get to be tortured for all eternity.



    HOW MUCH DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU PREACH? HOW MUCH? You can't shrug
    this off because jesus changed the rules, can you? This was the man himself
    telling you! It was black and white. No provisos. Start chopping, if you
    believe.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s acceptedchosen  - Reponse to antitheist1
    Wow you have alot of anger. What is wrong with the world.... is because of mans
    sin. About the robes. What Jesus Christ is saying is that the pharisees and
    Saducees, the folks who were supposed to be teachers then, (the guys in the
    robes)were hippocrates just like alot of folks today that claim to be christian.
    The Pharisees would walk around in fancy robes as if they themselves were above
    everyone else when they should have been teaching God word and pointing others
    to Christ It was all about them and their pride at Their "greatness"
    their position And their head knowledge of Gods word. Its not about who or what
    people claim to be its about a relationship with Christ Jesus and humility and
    loving people as Christ loved us. You may have met some of theseHippocritical/
    Judgemental "christians" What I would reccomend is to ask Christ to
    open your eyes to the truth and read his word ask for his wisdom and he w...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Done that.
    Yes, I am angry. Perhaps I haven't anunciated my reasons quite clearly enough
    yet, so I'll go again.

    1. There is no proof of the existance of any deity.

    2. Without said proof, those people who believe in a deity still proclaim the
    existance of one. Questioning this can in many cases lead the questioner to a
    horrible end.

    3. Those believers are not content to just believe; they alter our laws, our
    education, our social structure, our very lives to the point that it actually
    becomes a crime not to follow thier beliefs. People are still being jailed and,
    in many cases, executed for this.

    4. Those beliefs are also used in justifying hate speech. Don't believe me?
    Here's a challenge; read one of Ray Comfort's articles on atheism out loud, and
    substitute the word 'atheist,' with, 'black man.' This should give you some
    measure of why I stand where I do.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Your reasons for anger
    are interesting. There is something else underlying this, but it seems
    personal, so I will not butt-in.



    Actually, in the US and abroad, it is the Christian Church that is being
    persecuted. Remember the Olympics. Chinese official jailed a Chinese Christian
    Pastor (known as Pastor Bike) for the duration of the Olympics. He was not heard
    from for almost 2 months after the Olympics.



    Missionaries in Southeast Asia were captured by radical Islamists. The female
    was bruatlized and the male killed, just for being Christian. Actually, this
    story is kind of repetitive when you look at Southeast Asia, China and parts of
    the Arabic world. Check out Voice of the Martyrs.



    Currently in the US, it is Christianity under attack. The President has stated
    that America is not a Christian nation regardless of what Washington, Jefferson,
    Franklin, Adam, Lincoln (the list continues, Madison,etc.) have said about the<...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Your anger 2... What about the Non-theists approac
    on Christian America. It is a crime in most of Africa, a majority of the
    Middle-East and Southeast Asia to practice Christianity. Believers in China,
    known to authorities are jailed immediately. What about that?



    As to #4: Doesn't Dawkins outright call Christians fools and idiots? What is
    the difference? What if you replace Dawkins' "Christian" with
    "black man" or "gay", would not the result be the same?



    For #1: What is the proof that God does not exist? If there is no proof for His
    existence, then there must be something empirical showing that He does not
    exist.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - #1-Just Me
    I often feel that it's kind of odd that theists want the atheists to disprove
    the existence of a deity, knowing full-well that disproof of a negative is
    impossible, scientifically (hey, I don't make the rules on this). So, as you
    are in law enforcement, may I suggest that you view this request as a judge in a
    court case might? You find a crime committed, and someone asserts that the
    purpetrator is a person for whom no evidence exists. The defense lawyer calls
    upon the prosecution to prove the non-existence of the alleged purpetrator.

    How far would this go in court? I'm pretty sure that the judge would demand
    that the defence produce evidence of existence, not the other way around.

    So, in this case, I think it's appropriate for me to ask your evidence for
    existence.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Good work...let's keep it going
    You found the flaw of the logical argument. It is hard to disprove a negative,
    impossible as you would say. Proof for this postulate, or say for evolution,
    must rely upon some philosophical logical arguments either inductively or
    deductively. There are 4 logical arguments for the proof of God's existence.
    Using your example, this would be circumstantial evidence, and be fully upheld
    and binding in court. There is also historical proof for Jesus and his claims,
    again enough proof to stand up at trial. You want to work some of this out?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Absolutely!
    Refreshing to debate someone with some real knowledge! I'm pretty sure I know
    what the 4 logical arguments are, but please reiterate for me.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Binding evidence...
    Are you sure they would hold such a thing up in court? I'm pretty sure the
    'invisible man' defense would be a lot more popular if it did. There needs to
    be at least some shred of evidence that the missing party existed.

    And I have no doubt that someone was the basis for the gospels, both cannonical
    and non, and that person, whomever it was, laid down some philosophical points
    that were excellent, and that I have no problem with saying should be followed.
    There are some points that I question, but overall a nice bit of philosophy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - #4- Just Me
    I agree. Dawkins takes very harsh language in many cases, and I do not condone
    that. Insulting the people you are trying to educate is counterproductive in
    nearly all cases. I do ask you to take what he says in full context, though.
    In his book, The God Delusion, Dawkins reprints some of the letters that he has
    recieved. They are nothing short of ghastly. Frightening, in fact. That
    Dawkins continues to publish books in the face of such literal death-threats is
    a show of the man's character. But don't take my word for it, read the book
    from the man himself. I'll gladly loan you my copy. You can judge for
    yourself. Have you read any of Dawkins' books? He has read the bible.

    Finally, just because something is not pleasant doesn't mean it isn't true.
    When we hear a negative about ourselves, the first thing we should ask is, 'are
    they right?'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - #4 Dawkins
    I am familiar with Dawkins, but have not read his works, only excerpts (and not
    just from Christians trying to refute him). I agree, the letters and threats he
    has received are horrid. It is hard to be a Christian in America because of
    certain theology involved, we obey the government. Our government has
    established Free Speech (which I hope never goes away). Dawkins is free to
    think, write and say what he wants. If I don't believe or like what he says, I
    simply don't read it. I don't see where it is right to threaten him. However,
    I dare say, the owner of this website, Mr. Comfort, has also received threats
    for his published beliefs and was at one point subject to government
    persecution. The sword swings both ways. This argument leads down a road that
    both sides are correct and wrong. Correct that theists and non-theists have
    been the source of great atrocities and wrong in that being the source of a
    great atrocit...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Aha!
    Yes, the sword does indeed swing both ways. And if either side wishes to not be
    cut, then someone has to put down the sword. I've seen, over the past while,
    Atheists beginning to organize. This is both encouraging AND disconcerting to
    me. If organized, we might have the political clout needed to at least alter
    some of the more dubious religion-based laws (let's face it; there really needs
    to be some reworking here. If drafted, I as an atheist would have a much harder
    time claiming C.O. status than, say, a Quaker. "Conscientious" does not
    mean, "Religious"), but organization takes leadership, and it is far too
    easy for a leader to abuse power. Right now we atheists enjoy almost unheard of
    freedom of thought, though at the price of almost non-existant political
    representation.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Persecution
    Yes. There is a lot of religious persecution in the world, isn't there? The
    fact that it seems there is more and more persecution of Christians over the
    past 20 years or so should not negate the fact that before then it was the
    Christians doing the persecution (I'm sure I don't have to cite examples here,
    we're all familiar with them). In many cases, it still is.

    It's my observation that religions of all stripes (I see little difference in
    the various theisms) produce this kind of intolerence almost invariably. They
    must, because a religion must make it's members feel above everyone else, like
    they have some knowledge that noone else has. Looking down on the outgroup
    seems a natural consequence of this.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Perscution - you have
    certainly implied the reason in your answer. You see, #1 religion is different
    from relationship, and #2 man is in the mix, and that ain't good.

    Religion implies a set of rules and regulations that must be followed, unless
    you want to suffer certain consequence. Relationship is living up to a standard
    that you believe in because of that relationship. This is very elementary, but
    will suffice for now.

    Man being in the mix is not good because man is flawed. You obviously know this
    from previous posts. When a flawed man is in charge of a system, the system can
    become flawed and redesigned to the man. Christianity recognizes only 1 perfect
    man, Jesus. It is a relationship with Jesus, learning who He is, and what He
    did, that hopefully will cause a person to want to change. I have seen your
    other posts about what He has said and can and will address them, but suffice it
    to say, that man redesigning Jesus' ori...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Man's flaws...
    Yup. Even I ain't perfect. In fact, the imperfection is one of the reasons
    that I find to doubt Theism. While it is hard to imagine that Paris Hilton was
    put here by a perfect being for a flawless purpose, it's much easier to explain
    her existance in evolutionary terms; she's proven that her genes are quite
    well-suited to give her the liklihood of passing them on, regardless of any
    other factor. One could say the same of the genes and memes that create a
    rapist. It's not nice, but it makes sense (no, I do not condone either of these
    as examples to follow). While the above do nothing to aid humanity in general,
    they do aid themselves in getting copied and passed down, and that's all
    evolution requires.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - My Anger...
    ...by all means, I accepted your offer of a discussion, have been posting at
    this site for a while, and have answered any question anyone cared to ask. What
    would you like to know about my personal reasons? I'll answer honestly, within
    legal bounds (my profession does not allow me to disclose any information that
    could identify an individual I've worked with).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Less Evolved  - Good One A1
    Interesting to see your reaction A1. Did you ever notice how seething, and
    forceful, people get when their argument is falling apart at the seems.
    Evolution had it's day, but even the evolutionists are falling through the
    "idea's" giant holes, and contemplating the validity of a creator...the
    more we know, the more the evidence points to creation. How'bout Antony
    Flew...the worlds greatest Athiest looking at the evidence and realizing there
    must be a God.



    Unfortunately, he didn't put the same time into studying God's word...we pray
    that in the end, He put his trust in the Lord Jesus.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Study...
    I'm pretty sure that I know the scriptures as well as anyone here. If you take
    the time to read past posts I've made, you'll understand why.

    I have no idea who Anthony Flew is, I'll have to check him out.

    Don't worry; I've sought, prayed, read, wept, immersed myself in religion. All
    that happened was very human in nature; everyone wanted money, everyone wanted
    control, everyone threatened violence in one form or another if I didn't follow
    them. god was silent.

    At that point, I was faced with a choice; work life out for myself, or give up
    entirely. I made my choice.

    I'm still here. god never was.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Obviously YOU didn't study!
    Here's how the bible says I can marry YOUR daughter!



    "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and
    rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels
    of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce
    her as long as he lives."

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29



    And since jesus said that "not a jot nor a tiddle shall disappear from the
    law." that means that the above IS STILL IN EFFECT! C'mon, ladies! Endorse
    the bible! It shows god's love for you! You are worth 50 sheckels, according
    to your god.



    "But it's not valid now!" the christian says.



    Your god, the so-called perfect being, thought it was.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Jake
    That's from the OT. Its different now that we have the NT. There are things in
    the OT that are no longer practiced because; Christ died for us. Everything
    changed because, of what he did. You atheist never seem to understand that...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Understanding!
    "Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets.
    I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true." Matt 5:17 GWT



    You christians never seem to read that book of yours. Why is it that we
    atheists are the ones who always seem to have to educate you?

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s RAM  - Bird Man
    Brainwashing can be used as a war tactic, and if you are in a battle we should
    be aware of the enemy and all thier messsages.



    You really believe birds had teeth?

    How many years did they have teeth and where are they now?



    The chance of that being true is the same chance of you being able to fly and
    chirp.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Teeth.
    Yes. I KNOW birds had teeth. Not due to some guess work. Not based on a 2,000
    year-old text. Based on having seen them. With my own eyes. There are
    experiments happening NOW wherein dormant genes in chickens are activated. The
    chickens grow teeth, scales, and tails. Don't believe me! Check for yourself.
    Chickens possess reptile genes, and are, in fact, reptiles.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    You'll have to better than animal planet! Try a scientific journal article
    demonstraing the methods used PLease.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Science...
    The article at animal planet lists the researchers involved, and provides the
    links to the raw data. But what do you want with science? It relies on the
    assumption that data is valid, and you rely on the assumption that data is
    trumped by a bronze-age book written by desert nomads.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Poor poor antitheist. Back to name calling. and bantor? We are arguing over
    citations in another thread so what is up with the temper? Cite your sources.
    I went to your cited web page and it would not load, my 'puter is state of the
    art and linked with lightening speed. so none of that is the difficulty. I
    spent zero time trying to figure out why. So, since you can see your story and
    the citations list them. If not then take a tums and two asprin.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - MY name calling?
    First, I told you how to load the page in question and get to the citations.
    Second, I stated NOTHING in the above post that was not FACT, so I'm pretty sure
    that name-calling wasn't it. Third, I pulled up the web-site with my 'puter,
    which is several years old with a simple google search, which yielded the study
    on the first link. Fourth, try reading. It's a massive aid in figuring people
    out.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s William  - Birds and teeth
    I have to correct you on that. Birds don't have teeth per se; that part of your
    statement is true. What they do have are small ridges where one might expect
    teeth to be. Just look at a platypus: They are born with 'teeth' until it falls
    out early in life and becomes a ridged edge on the bill. This is used to grind
    up food. So, although ducks nor platypi have 'teeth' teeth, they do have
    something to chew with.



    Also, in the fossil record, small reptiles were seen sprouting feathers then
    eventually wings. This implies that the early ancestors of the birds had teeth
    (since reptiles have teeth).



    I suppose you are correct in saying the ancestral birds didn't have teeth
    because they weren't really birds as we know them today. They are, however,
    ancestors to birds today who had teeth and eventually evolved because the teeth
    were unnecessary, dangerous, or another list of possibilities that I don't
    know.


    ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Wierd factoid...
    According to the Drumheller museum, there seems to be convincing evidence that
    juvenile t-rex's had feathers, but lost them as adults. Things that make you
    go, 'Hmmmm.'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Believe?
    No, I KNOW. Here, little unbeliever, is the PROOF, something which you
    religious people have none of to support your invisible sky man.



    Copy and paste this link to view chicken teeth for yourself.



    http://animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20060220/c hicken.html



    Now just how do you explain THAT without evolution?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - oops
    Sorry Oh hateful one. Your site does not work. I copied and pasted so no
    mistakes would happen.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - This site
    ...put a space in the word 'chicken.' Remove the space, and the link works.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    hey man you gotta love what the 'puter can do to your posts. adding a space.
    that's nice of the 'puter.

    I gotta go looky.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Talpid2 is a recessive trait that is lethal. That means they die. But the
    article says some live as long as 18 days. They don't make molars they make
    nascent teeth. (Nascent: begining to exist or develop.) So he gave them a viral
    infection that started the formation then was reabsorbed back into the beak.
    What I can get from SCientific American. THis is a lay persons scientific
    jounal. It usually only covers the surface. Looking at the photos of the
    embryo's it looks to me like there are a lot more structural things going on.
    The infected one looks badly deformed compared to the wt version. BUT, the point
    is there are genes in the critter that make what appears to be teeth.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Thank you.
    Now, how do you explain the presence of a gene like that without evolution?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I explain the emergence of "theeth" by telling everyone that this guy
    genetically engeneered and virus that MADE the critter produce teeth. Talpid2
    is responsible for this abberation and it kills the embryo before it is even
    viable. Evolution requires viable. I don't see this as an evolutionary
    experiment at all. Bias is in full effect here. Many in the developmental
    field will inject stuff then focus on the one section they are interested in
    while ignoring the rest. Very common. Look at the photos in the article. Only
    the head was shown. WHat about the rest of the embryo?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Good point!
    I first learned about the study in a documentary, and they did show the full
    embryo...but beside the point. Good refutation, so I'll have to up the Anti
    (get it?).



    http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/



    Here's the MSU long-term evolution study site, headed by Richard Lenski. Have
    some fun refuting this one...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Eh...?
    Nothing to say? I know that you can appreciate the work being done by Dr.
    Lenski, and the sheer brilliance in eliminating all possible means of evolution
    other than evolution. I'm waiting to hear how you figure it's invalid; it
    oughta be pretty good.

    Do keep in mind that I do have enough know-how to appreciate the science here as
    well. I prefer to keep things in layman's terms for those other readers here
    who might want to understand...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s LogicalBeliever  - Evidence of God
    The world and all its creations revolve around 'Cause' and 'Purpose'. What is
    the difference between Cause and Purpose? Cause is determination of future
    events by the past. Purpose is determination of future events by a vision of the
    future. You can't have a purpose unless you visualize what you want to do.
    Therefore, purpose requires a mind, an intelligent designer. (examples: a)
    Precise distance of Moon to earth; b)Plants producing oxygen; c)How the human
    eye works, which by the way we can only can explain what it does but not how it
    does it. Has man ever created anything greater than himself? No. Neither has
    God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - It's called science!
    A) Moon; Of COURSE it's at a fixed distance and speed! If it weren't, it would
    have crashed into earth, or been flung away. There were very likely other moons
    to which this happened. We're lucky to have one left!

    B) Plants producing oxygen. Hmm. Tough one. Wouldn't have anything to do with
    plants being CARBON BASED, would it? Extract carbon from CO2, and you have left
    over oxygen, which is a high-energy toxin, which we animals just happen to know
    how to utilize.

    C) Eyes; We know EXACTLY how they work! A protein has two stable forms, one of
    which is manifested only when hit by a photon of light. Now, which designer was
    it that came up with the clever idea of stickin all the wiring IN FRONT OF THE
    PHOTORECEPTORS? Bad design!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - You still haven't answered to this one...
    So I thought I'd put it right back up here; at the top.



    And I quote, on the topic of threats:



    "Anyone that rebells against God is



    His enemy!" and, "The everlasting tortue is just." and, "you'd

    rather be burned unquencably, soured sulfer smelled to the point of vomiting

    unquencably, and be seared with hate unquencably than to listen to these
    putative ignorant fools try to save you from it? (again, all errors were

    cut-and-pasted directly from your posts)"



    Then, in the above post, you asserted that there were, "Still no threats.



    And so again, having presented my case, I put forth the motion that YOU, GLEN,

    ARE A LIAR!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - It is very Dark where you are
    Are you really whinning over somethng that you say does not exist?

    Kind silly of you. And sad.

    And presented with a man holding a gun on you and demanding money or he will
    kill you. You will stand, shake your fist and tell him all these triffling
    things you say here? Or will you give him your money. Really pal you are way
    out there.

    Warning someone about empending calamity is not threatening them with said
    tradgedy. Not very smart of you pal. Or do you just not know the difference!

    I still stand IN PRAYER against you and the forces of darkness you bring. THis
    is a staement of position not a threat. diametrically opposing position.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Man widda gat!
    No, you're the man with the gun demanding money. Pretending that the danger is
    presented by the gun powder, which you have no control over does not negate the
    fact that the dangerous party consists of the religious people.



    Must suck to have science prove belief wrong. I'm thinking that a few hundred
    years ago, you would have been the one showing torture devices to Gallileo.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    You are so far gone. My goodness. The one that would be using and is in fact
    standing in the using position now is you. You are the one that wants to
    eliminate all religions. You are the one speaking hate. Come on pal you are
    speaking with the authority of the wind.

    Science does not prove belief wrong! You gotta have belief to even use science!
    Show me an elecrton. You cannot do that! One can only believe and trust that
    the science behind the math is real. That is done over and over agian in
    experimental processes.

    And I still stand against you and the forces of darkness you bring. I won't kill
    anyone that refuses to belive in God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Faith...
    ...does not prove science wrong. You claim it does. You claim that if I don't
    accept the crud you're selling, eternal torture is a justifiable punishment.
    You force this worthless drivel on children, setting them up for a lifetime of
    shame and guilt that is, according to Dr. J. Togo, is every bit as harmful as
    childhood sexual abuse, and YOU ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS RIGHT! And even more
    frighteningly, you would actually defend those beliefs to the death, despite
    blindingly obvious, in-your-face proof that it's all a bunch of made-up hooey!



    But where I really draw the line is my children. Your 'education' and
    'intelligent design' have no place in thier education beside actual science.
    And mark my words, I stand between you and kids. They don't need to be
    traumatized by fiction presented as fact.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - I stand against you!
    Anti-theist,

    I stand against you and all the angels of darkness you bring with you! I am
    asking Jesus to send His angels to defend this site and people, even to send
    Mikael himself if it is His will. This angel is powerful enough to handle all
    those in your corner. God commissions Michael as He see fit. So, I go to the
    throne to request the best.

    To the rest who have stood against Anti-theist...Pray with me for the same. I
    have seen many try to speak to Anti. Pray with me in this regard.

    Anti-thiest, prayers are not designed to hurt you. They never are. You feel as
    though they are. I call God and HIs angels to fight the powers that are not
    flesh. They are the target. Make no mistake. You are not the target.

    Brothers open up in prayer angainst the dominion of those binding antithieist in
    slavery! AMEN!!!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
    You tell me that the prayers offered in the "I stand against you!" post
    are not against me? What? So, you're now bringing in the archangel of war?
    GREAT! Bring in mars, and herakles, and that guy they just made a video game
    about too!



    They're all fiction. And you still have nothing. Pray as hard as you like,
    you're doing little more than wasting your time. But hey, in order to know
    something from a religious standpoint, you actually need to disregard whatever's
    in front of you so you can keep your fiction.



    Great stand, man. Wish you luck with it!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Dude...
    I still ain't a demon.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s the fowler  - bravo
    with all due respect ma'am, you are comiting a great evil trying to force your
    friends' childrens' minds into your way of thinking, however i must congratulate
    your daughter on her enlightenment, i can only hope she has the mental strength
    to resist your impending attempts to brainwash her.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hey, the Fowler!
    Have you been noticing, like I have, how quickly all these religious people run
    away at the first sight of facts?

    Fact: the site 'Athiest Central' was set up in an effort by Ray Comfort to bring
    atheists into contact with christians.

    Fact: They sell 'Online Biblical Evangelism' classes for $150 (why not free,
    Ray? I've offered online banjo lessons for free, on this site!)

    Fact: Birds possess the genes to make them reptiles. Those genes can, and have,
    been activated by scientists to show that chickens once possessed teeth, scales,
    and long tails.

    Fact: No evidence exists for god.



    I'm expecting the christians to run in terror here (OH NO! A FACT! WHATEVER
    SHALL WE DO?), and at most post a comment or two on how I'm going to be tortured
    in a non-existant hell.



    Still waiting for a REAL response to REAL evidence here!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s roger drake  - there is no God???
    Well, God says he who refuses to believe in the existence of Himself is a fool!
    God also says in His inspired inerrant Word, that, He has revealed himself to
    every man! You have received a revelation of God. All your attempts to deny it
    are also foolish. One example: did you listen to the discussion on logic? no
    of course not. Well the syllogism goes something like this. Logic, physics and
    all science principles were present before man came onto the earth. (2) Science
    and logic came from an intelligent mind (outside time and space) (3) God is the
    only entity. we know of, that is outside time and space. Therefore God exists.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Ontology...
    The first assumption can be proven. The others have no proof whatsoever. We
    don't know god at all! What we know is that some bronze-age desert tribesman
    wrote a text that was heavily reliant on the Egyption monotheistic
    sun-worshiping religion. Therefore, your argument has only a one-in-three basis
    in fact. That's the logical argument known as 'slippery slope.'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh yeah...
    ...And god didn't say anything at all. The FACT you are looking for (note;
    facts must be backed by EVIDENCE) is that a 2000 year-old textbook that was
    deliberately altered for political purposes several times states that whomever
    doesn't believe in god is a fool.



    I counter by saying that whoever believes whatever they read is missing the fact
    that writers tell stories.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Really?
    "I counter by saying that whoever believes whatever they read is missing the
    fact
    that writers tell stories."

    Does this include what you have written? Just asking, because the logic seems
    to be circular here.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - Absolutely!
    Don't take my word for it! At all! Go out there and see it for yourself! If
    you want to know where I got my information from, I'll be happy to tell you, but
    you have to look YOURSELF. If you just believed whatever I said, then I'd have
    myself a little mini-cult here, wouldn't I? And that goes against everything I
    stand for.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Oh yeah....
    What is the historiography for your statement: "The FACT you are looking for
    (note;
    facts must be backed by EVIDENCE) is that a 2000 year-old textbook that was
    deliberately altered for political purposes several times states that whomever
    doesn't believe in god is a fool."?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Facts
    FACT: There is no evidence on the non-existence of God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Well, in that case...
    ...you should also believe in wotan, zeus, krishna, brahma, shiva, vishnu, and
    Rainbow-Brite (tm).



    FACT: There is no evidence for the existance of god.



    FACT: The god of the bible is a genocidal, sex-obsessed, child-killer.



    FACT: If jesus is the same, omnipotent being, then he's just as guilty.



    FACT: Even if said yahweh did exist, and was proven to exist, I would not
    follow such an ogre, and I would have to question the sanity of anyone who did.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Well in that Case:
    Antitheist1,

    I for one am glad you are here. I have read several of your posts and I agree,
    true Christians should not be intimidated by you or your responses. I have also
    read some of the negativity directed at you by people saying they are Christian.
    This is very unfair and frankly, un-Christian. Your conversations with Char
    have been the most insightful and she is promoting the true spirit of
    Christianity by not name calling and having an adult debate. I would like the
    same. A dialogue between you and me. I would like to suggest some ground
    rules:

    1. Ground arguments in fact, so far as possible.

    2. No name calling, there is no need for it.

    3. Respect each others opinions. This would include a modicum of respect for
    the Deity of my belief and I won't call Darwin a "Monkey's Uncle".

    4. Base arguments in logic.

    5. I would ask that other Christians get involved in OUR conversation ONLY if I
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Well in that Case Pt 2
    am incorrect on a theological or historical point, and would ask the same from
    any of your friends/fellow-believers.

    These are my basic terms. If you accept, you have my word, I will not judge you
    for your beliefs, and I will do my best (as good as anyone can on the internet)
    to keep others from attacking you personally. Personal attacks have no
    belonging in logical debate.



    Do you accept?



    If so:



    "FACT: There is no evidence for the existence of God"



    I rebut with "There is no evidence for the non-existence of God" -
    please prove your fact that God does not exist.



    "FACT: The god of the bible is a genocidal, sex-obsessed,
    child-killer."



    I rebut with this is a non-sequitur based completely on your first FACT. If God
    does not exist, then how can He be these things?



    "FACT: If jesus is the same, omnipotent being, then he's just as...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Well, in that case Pt 3
    FACT: If jesus is the same, omnipotent being, then he's just as guilty."



    I rebut with simply this is not a fact, but a conditional (if-then statement),
    and another non-sequitur. This FACT does not follow the argument of your first
    FACT. Here you actually argue that God does exist, and He existed in the person
    of Jesus Christ.



    I won't address your last FACT since it truly is nothing but personal
    belief/opinion.



    I am not being sarcastic or mean-spirited...I really would like to dialogue with
    you...you are passionate about this as much as I am...I will provide you the
    same amount of personal history as you have provided in your previous posts upon
    request....



    Respectfully,

    Just Me.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - Agreed. And thank you.
    Before I begin the debate aforementioned, I will agree to all of your ground
    rules, save for the third. From my point of view, those you ask my respect for
    are causing harm that is measurable, therefore I cannot offer my respect along
    with an honest opinion. The best I can do there is offer not to use specific
    names (other than in quotes from other sources) and to refrain from the rather
    harsher methods I take with those that have attacked me.

    Finally, I also offer to conduct the debate both here and via proper email
    (which I have no problem with you publishing in any forum, provided that it is
    published in full, and that my real name not be used for safety.)



    If you can accept this, then I'll begin my rebuttal.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antithiest1  - But I do...
    ...welcome the challenge presented here. I really do hope that you can accept
    my terms, which are offered in the same spirit of understanding you have
    displayed.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Absolutely
    Antithiest,

    I do agree and accept. Of course your information will be protected. To be
    honest, you probably already know where I stand in beliefs...so, I will also
    tell you that I am employed in local Law Enforcement, so I protect my identity
    as well. I have dealt with some nasty people in person AND on the Internet (one
    of which is scheduled to be released from his state mandated temporary housing
    soon), so I am careful about what I put out there.



    I agree to your modification of terms, so long as you can at least quote the
    source of the negative wording, that's all I ask.



    As to the email, I suggest we set up accounts at Yahoo or something like that
    because you and I both know that publishing our real accounts will lead to
    "Christians" sending negative things to you and "Atheists"
    sending negative things to me. This at least also helps to protect anonymity
    and email accounts. Does ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Then let's dive in.
    You are invited to use the e-mail address ceevro@gmail.com which is where I
    ordinarily send spam to whenever I sign up for something that may generate a lot
    of it (no insult intended here, so please don't take it that way). Just include
    my cognomen 'Antitheist1' in the subject, and I'll be sure to forward it to my
    real e-mail account, and go from there.



    As to the public side in here...well here I go...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Rebuttal...
    The first assumes that the onus of proving the existence of a deity lies with
    the one who doesn't believe one is there. I don't really follow the logic of
    that, BUT I'm willing to show the evidence I've seen for the non-existence of a
    deity.

    1. Over the course of history, there have been many miracles documented. As we
    get smarter, and new discoveries are made and become common-place, we begin to
    see that trickery has been used by shamens of various stripes for thousands of
    years. So I ask you, on miracles; what miracle in the bible cannot be explained
    by a combination of science and slight-of-hand? What miracle couldn't be
    reduced to science and slight-of-hand via Occam's razor?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Rebuttal cont1...
    Now, as to the next two, you relied on the first to enable a non-answer for the
    second and third. Evasion is the tack I see being taken here.

    In the bible, the Old Testament Deity ordered and personally committed what
    would have been considered atrocities, even in that time. How do you reconcile
    this with the assumption of goodness, mercy, and love, especially considering
    that those atrocities were often conducted against innocents (infants,
    non-combatants, the elderly, and even animals)?

    As to the last, how can a person who is said to be the same Deity not be guilty
    of what was done previously?

    And finally, if said Deity had the knowledge and power to change the rules, or
    the actions, in advance, why do we get the blame for them?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Scrawny- Truly?
    I would like to know your sources! Just exactly when was atheism used as an
    excuse to kill people (don't try Pol Pot, Tiennamen, Stalin, Hitler, etc.
    Hitler was "A good Catholic" -Rudolph Hess, and the rest were killing in
    the name of Communism and personality cults (religion, used to claim a despot is
    god).

    No seriously! What history are you talking about?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s scrawny  - Believe it or not - the death toll still stands
    Yes, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler - you know them.
    Hitler claimed to be anything depending on his audience. He certainly was not a
    "good catholic" even though he went to church to appease the catholic
    populous at the time. His writings in Mein Kampf and the Nuremberg prosecutors
    Jackson and Donovan documented the fanatical anti-Christianity/anti-theism of
    the Nazis fueled by a pro-evolutionary leader. Or would you believe Churchill
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Believe it!
    Yup. All those guys were evil. Note, however, that Hitler himself declared
    that he was catholic (whether or not it was real, it was most CERTAINLY used to
    sway those people under him who were catholic). Now, as to the others; it's
    called Communism. And Personality cultism. Religion has not been eliminated in
    those places, rather it has been changed to worship of leaders (can we say Kim
    Jong Ill?). This is STILL religion in every sense, and people kill to promote
    it, and die rather than change previous religious beliefs.



    Keep trying!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Borrowed from another poster...
    Thanks for this gem, Jim!



    Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of

    the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for
    the

    work of the Lord.."



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - CHAR
    Hey Char see what I mean? Anti-theist is relentless in hating God. Nothing you
    say will sway him! Take a better look at the back and forth in the posts.
    Speaking to him does only 3 things. 1) does not help you, 2) does not help him,
    and 3) does not help everyone else reading these posts. Satan comes to kill,
    steal and destroy. Anti is owned by him so the goals are the same. Anti is come
    among the sheep to scatter them and this is his tact. When you engage him things
    get mean and the rest of the lerkurs and posters are affected by it. It is best
    to ignor him. All he wants to do is endless argue. No one to argue with he'll
    leave. I think we both would be better off.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh ye of little brains!
    Glen, and I mean this in the nicest possible way; you sir, are a moron. Have I
    not stated ad nauseum that I have no desire to kill? That my desire is to see
    the killing stop? That I'm not demonic in any sense, and don't believe in
    demons to begin with? I'm here to speak sense!

    Go and tell a dendrochronologist that the world is less than 6000 years old.
    Get some rings, and COUNT! USE YOUR HEAD!!!

    Oh, and should you lack the brains to actually READ WHAT I WROTE BEFORE TELLING
    ME ABOUT IT, I suggest that it be YOU who would be better off leaving.

    I don't hate god; he does not exist. I hate how idiots kill because of the
    fiction. Ignore me, and I'll still fill your website with reality enough to
    shut up the continuous drivel coming out of fundamentalist morons like you!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s scrawny  - Killing
    Despite the fact that there has been killings in the name of "God" in
    the past - when you look at Atheism you have an even bleaker history. Atheism
    has more blood shed in the past 100 years than the history of the church
    masquerading as "Christ-followers" ever has. The problem is, is that
    Atheism is hard pressed to come up with an accusation against such atrocities
    (what is good? What is evil?) whereas Jesus openly spoke against violence, He
    was against religious bigotry and was compassionate to sinners... including
    yourself.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s the fowler  - ooo i love this argument
    lol lets assume you are correct. do you seriously believe that the group with
    the shorter body pile has the authority on truth? and perhaps you should read
    your bible, jesus often was violent and asked his disciples to kill sinners and
    those that didnt believe in him. you cant pick and choose passages because then
    you invalidate the bible as a source of morals. goodbye moral high ground huh?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Let the bodies hit the floor!
    Niiiice. I truly don't need much to invalidate the bible as a source of
    morality, though. How many time did this yahweh guy commit genocide?
    Directly?

    HOWEVER, that being the case, I agree that the body count has little to do with
    the truth. I'm sorry to say that science does not support a literal
    interpretation of the bible. Period.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s dj  - Antitheist has discovered a god
    With all the absolute statements you like to make it seems you have indeed
    discovered a deity and you think it's you. How arrogant are you, that you would
    raise yourself up infinitely above where you are, to accuse an omniscient,
    omnipotent, omnipresent Being of something!? (And I'm lumping in this post with
    all of your others that have made absolute statemets) Please tell me why God
    should have to answer to you? Does a Queen or President have to answer to an
    ant?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Arrogance...
    I have evidence, which I am willing to share, to back up any statement I have
    made. Should better evidence present itself, I am willing to discard any
    position I have taken in favour of a better one.

    YOU, dj, have ZERO evidence for god. None. Zip. Nothing. Nada. So, tell me
    now, why should the whole world answer to something that DOES NOT EXIST, by all
    available evidence? How arrogant are you to assume that your position is right
    when you have nothing but fire and brimstone sermons from people who ALSO HAVE
    NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP WHAT THEY ARE SAYING, and are getting money to make you
    believe it?

    No deity would answer me, for the same reason the tooth faery won't: there is
    none.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Answer has been given...HEBREWS 6:4-6.
    Anti-theist, your answer has been give! Over and over. Your are angry (quote:
    that does not even begin to explain it-by you) because all that is in you knows
    that you are going to destruction and all that you have is now. you have
    nothing else. Everything you will ever have is hapening right now. You should
    stop wasting your time arguing with us and enjoy the rest of what you have
    left.

    Your anger is directed at self and the ones that led you astray. Those will
    also recieve theirs. Jesus tells us it would be better for them to have a mill
    stone tied to thier necks and tossed into the sea.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Don't
    ...even begin to condescend to tell me where my anger lies! You don't know a
    thing about me (or, apparently, much of anything), you continue to quote the
    same useless drivel from the same fiction book at me. I'm pretty sure that from
    any rational persons' point of view, it's better to NOT listen to you, and thus
    not have to drown ourselves to be saved. Go drink some Soul Kool-Aid. Who
    knows? It might 'save' you!



    The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again and
    expecting different results.



    Thus, you G-man, are a religious nutbar.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Let the bodies hit the floor
    "I'm sorry to say that science does not support a literal interpretation of
    the bible. Period."

    Hasn't the science of archeology recently proven the existence of civilizations
    mentioned in the Bible that scientists in the 1950's and 1960's said never
    existed?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yes, it has.
    It has also proven that several of the cities mentioned in the bible did not
    exist, or were not cities, or were not inhabited, and many other alterations of
    fact. Let's take one, shall we?



    The Tower of Babel.

    Yup. Babel was a real city. It had a real tower. But here's the part the
    bible doesn't mention, which is important; It wasn't destroyed by god, but by
    Alexander the Great, almost a millenium off the biblical time-line. Sure, there
    were likely people who spoke different languages working on it, as it was a
    massive project, but they spoke those other languages before arriving.



    So, if one story from the bible isn't literally true, what does that say about
    the bible as a source of history? I would contend that it does contain valuable
    information, but any information gleaned must be investigated FIRST, before
    accepting it's veracity.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s dj  - The fowler - too bad you can't back it up
    Please list all the passages where Jesus "asked his disciples to kill sinner
    and those that didnt believe in him." I won't hold my breath.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sadly...
    ...dj is right on this one. There are no passages in the bible where jesus
    tells his disciples to kill. He says that god will do that for them.

    That said, jesus DID, however, call upon his followers to abandon all property,
    hate everyone, and assume that anyone who wouldn't listen to his message was out
    to kill them. He also took a whip to people using a building which jesus had
    said shouldn't be used for worship, because they were using it for commerce
    (just what were they supposed to do with that rather expensive structure, I
    wonder?).

    Like any claim I make, I'll quote the direct scriptures for you, but I'm
    guessing you've probably read it for yourself, right?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s scrawny  - ok then
    That's not what I was getting at. Antitheist1 pointed out that us "idiots
    kill because of the fiction". Well, loud mouthed atheists in the past have
    been known to kill BECAUSE of their fiction AND in higher numbers AND it's
    justifiable. If God is the authority over life then He has the right to take it
    when he pleases - that's not murder any more than taking your book off the
    bookshelf is stealing. It's only recorded once when Jesus was violent - in the
    market place. Getting angry towards evil is a good thing. Would you sit by idly
    whilst a child was being raped in your local park? When did Jesus ask his
    disciples to kill sinners?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Scrawny
    Please see my above reply.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - OH, but there's a couple more points here!
    You ask if I would sit by and watch a child being raped in a local park.
    Apparently, your god does, day in and day out. All over the world said god
    watches horrible things happening to innocent people, often done in his name,
    and does...you got it; NOTHING!

    The ONLY defence for such behavior in my books is that HE JUST AIN'T THERE.
    Otherwise, there are no words bad enough for someone who can stop an atrocity
    and just sits and watches.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s gbinpa  - Sad
    Hey Glen, its funny how atheists get so mad when they argue about there being no
    god.....lol They get all bent our of shape and start yelling and carrying on.
    Funny that for something they don't believe in gets them hot under the collar. I
    think its sad that they put so much passion in fighting God when their hearts
    are bursting in fear of not knowing Him.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Would you not be angry...
    ...if a satanist group forced your child's science classes to put forth their
    view that the world was created by a sadistic god as a cosmic joke, because god
    loves watching people die horribly? What if the same group altered the laws of
    your country to make marriage illegal, sodomy the only acceptable form of
    intercourse, and fraud a perfectly acceptable and legal way of making money?
    What if they forced extra taxes on any group that was not part of their
    movement?

    This is what religions all over the world have done! Yes, I'm angry. Wouldn't
    you be?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Mammals
    Well we are gonna have to agree to disagree about the superiority of the human
    being over animals. You call it extinction I call it the end of days. You
    probably believe in global warming too, but lets not get into that mess. We
    will all find out one day who was right...



    Everything that you pointed out that animals do is amazing, but you are in
    denial or living in the woods if you need me to compare human communication to
    animal, human capability to animal etc. In summary, you belive you are nothing
    compared to an animal, and I believe that an animal cannot compare to the human
    species. lol.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Simply incorrect.
    I don't believe that animals are superior. The fact is that we ARE animals.
    Just evolved differently. Neither better, or worse, just different. Please
    don't tell me what I believe, instead ask!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Reply to our bodies
    Sorry but i think about this over and over again and i laugh. You seem to have
    been heavily influenced by human haters. This reminds me of more liberal
    americans hating being american, will never side with America, and even hate our
    military. Ugh can't stand those people. They rush to say we are wrong and the
    other country is right, for the sake of humanism. I can't wait until it all
    unfolds and America's freedoms get taken away. I have been preparing for the
    unknown and unknowable so I embrace the day.



    What is the strongest animal? What is the smartest? Which has the most
    advanced form of communication that you mentioned? What will it take for you to
    admit that Humans are superior? Do you envision a planet of the Apes takeover
    or something? As long as I have my gun in hand and places to hide, that animal
    is going down.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nothin' but mammals!
    Strongest animal? There's a variety of ways to rate that! There's a type of
    flea that jumps so fast that it's body must withstand on the order of 200Gs. A
    polar bear is capable of killing a whale with one hit, then dragging the body
    onto the ice to eat it.

    Advanced communications? Blue whales can make songs loud enough to be heard on
    the other side of the planet, and they were doing it long before humans ever
    came up with cell phones! Their language is also more complex than English.
    They have brains bigger than ours, and they appear to use them!

    The one thing that all these animals REALLY have over us is that they haven't
    destroyed everything in their paths. Humans? Superior? They way I see it, if
    we don't get our act together, and soon, we'll be extinct within a few
    centuries. Cont...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nothin' but mammals, cont1
    You sound like a radical right-wing Texan in that last post! Let's just call
    the military what it is; paid professional killers. Sometimes that's needed,
    but USA has taken it to maybe the most destructive extreme ever witnessed. I
    refer you to Harold Pinter's Nobel Acceptance speech for what most closely comes
    to my political viewpoint. He just says it way better than I do.

    And if you want to present yourself as a serious christian, the commandment (NOT
    a polite suggestion) is THOU SHALT NOT KILL. There's no provisos there. And
    while you pay tax dollars that go to support the army, YOU ARE KILLING right
    now! Sure, someone else pulls the trigger, but you're paying them to do it, and
    thanking them for it, and buying up the stolen oil they bring back.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Radical
    I am 27 years old and have a college degree. Only recently did i decide to take
    a look at the world and do my research. I have only really been a Christian for
    a year also. I guess you can say I WAS super liberal based on my past life
    experiences. I was wishy washy on every subject, and I never used to have an
    opinion about anything. So now I embrace and defend my positions, i guess it
    comes with age. Although I wish more of my peers would have better knowledge of
    the world and stand up for something.



    So you are one of those who hate military and they kill yadda yadda yadda. I
    can't wait until Obama takes all the troops out. This should be the wish of all
    Christians even Anne Coulter. Then we could have more terrorist attacks and
    more Christians will be martyred. Sad but maybe people will see what they got
    themselves into cont...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Radical contd
    I bet you side with Muslims even in lieu of the terroist attack on Christmas
    day. You are probaly going to say, they attack because we are in their country
    killing their people yada yada yada. If it were up to me I would take all the
    troops out of those underserving countries they are in and keep those men and
    women here with their families. I don't know why America always has to be capt
    save a hoe! Then when all hell breaks loose, and the people cry for justice
    after America is attacked repeatedly, I would send all those anti military
    people on a plane to defend themselves. All american anti military people are
    are ungrateful children. I challenge them to leave America and go to Canada if
    they dont like it here. (Char's plan for America)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Well...
    I am a Canadian. That's like an American, without a gun.

    And again, you're putting beliefs in my mouth. I've said again and again that
    ALL religion is, to the best of my research, harmful. Religion is irrelevant to
    how I conduct myself. I give it no respect or special treatment. As to
    muslims; I have several friends in that faith. They are decent people, but to
    BE decent people, they cannot be fundamentalist muslims, and are therefore not
    true muslims. Just like those decent christians I know.

    I need no plan for America; your banks are currently gutting the country, your
    military is draining every cent you have, and you've used up all your resources.
    USA is finished, unless they can make some very good friends, and soon! I kinda
    doubt the American Superiortiy Complex will allow that to happen.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nothin' but mammals, cont2...
    But, for the record, I'm not American. I'm just a human. Borders only exist
    because of people's selfishness. If you'd ever actually spent time living
    abroad, you may have gained a different persective on America's place in the
    world. People are people wherever you go, and there isn't a single thing that
    America has that makes them any better than the rest of the planet. If
    anything, you have a tacit international reputation for being basically a legal
    mafia group.

    The whole world is waiting for USA to stop bombing people and start feeding
    them. That's the only way to stop all the killing you pay for.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Radical/Globalization
    I have lived abroad, in a third world country at that, and I would have to say,
    I would rather live here in America and maybe Canada. Again my motto is, if you
    don't like it leave! Yes, America is obligated to feed the world. It was
    established as a Christian nation and we are commanded to feed the poor. But we
    are no longer a Christian nation now, so who cares! (sarcasm)



    So we agree on globalization and how nasty it is going to be. There is a ruling
    elite in the world and they are not on our side, and they certainly do not
    practice any religion. Maybe Muslim though?



    Honestly I think you I should be on the same team as far as combatting religious
    terrorism. Please don't tell me you sympathize with Muslims more than
    Christians.

    If so you have bought into another lie.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nope...
    They're both the same, as far as I'm concerned. History certainly proves me
    right. Money, guilt, fear, and killing. That's what all religions are about in
    the end. As for combat; I fight for whoever doesn't need to be attacked and is
    in danger.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Jay10  - The Solution
    What is your suggestion? Are we all going to go sit by a camp fire and sing
    together? No. There is no Utopia here on earth. You are right that the world is
    filled with selfishness and hate. There is good and evil. God is good but
    punishes evil. The world is sin-filled and doesn't acknowledge God for who he
    is. You are a good example of that. I hope and pray you repent before it's too
    late.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Jay, for a dude who writes...
    ...you don't seem to READ! I put my suggestion in the above posted comment.
    Yup, STOP BOMBING PEOPLE AND START FEEDING THEM!

    I don't need god to tell me that that's the right thing to do, so why can't you
    seem to figure it out, even with said help?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - LCL
    I'm sorry but this is probably the saddest thing I have ever heard. Call me a
    conceited or boastful or prideful human, but I know that I am superior to ANY
    animal. You complain about an LCL and a "faulty design" of the hip, yet
    you don't think about the HUMAN mind that is able to fix all those problems when
    they occur. The human mind that is able to prevent and brace these things. I
    don't see any animals doing anything except for leave their injured and dead
    behind.



    What religion believes in reincarnation into animals? I think that religion
    would suit you well. It seems like that would be your personal utopia, to come
    back as an animal because they are far more superior to humans by design. I'm
    sorry but I have to laugh aloud. The very fact that an animal can't reply to
    this ridicule even if given a chance to be in front of a computer lets me know
    i'm better. haha.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Strangely...
    I've told you, all religions are little more than businesses that peddle false
    hope, at best.

    And no, we can't fix our bodies. Modern medicine can currently do only two
    things; poison you or cut out parts of your anatomy.

    Modern humans have been on the planet SCIENTIFICALLY for 195,000 years. That's
    nothing, in geological time. By contrast, crocodiles have been here 200,000,000
    years. We're infants! We were reduced to less than 10,000 individuals at one
    point (don't get your flood hopes up; this was volcanic) and very nearly went
    extinct. You really think we're SUPERIOR? REALLY?

    That just seems arrogant to me...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Strangely
    "Modern humans have been on the planet SCIENTIFICALLY for 195,000 years.
    That's
    nothing, in geological time. By contrast, crocodiles have been here 200,000,000
    years. We're infants! We were reduced to less than 10,000 individuals at one
    point (don't get your flood hopes up; this was volcanic) and very nearly went
    extinct."

    I am sure that you can prove this fact, but didn't Sagan and Hawking differ
    about the age of the earth? I mean two pre-eminent scientists who have studied
    this did not agree, so who was right....scientifically, of course?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sagan and Hawking
    Those pre-eminent scientists were both NOT geologists. Hawking is a theoretical
    physicist, and Sagan was an astronimer. Neither would have had a lot to say
    about the fossil-record, but have indeed made predictions about the age of the
    universe.



    The issue there is, pettily enough, dust. Because it's pretty much impossible
    to guage how much dust interferes with the light collected from distant objects,
    precisely dating the universe is difficult at best. The first scientific
    guesstimates were between 10 and 20 billion years. With advances in telescopes,
    that gap seems to be narrowing to around the 14.5 billion year range. I don't,
    however, know of any reputable scientist who would support less than 10,000
    years based on anything other than creationist beliefs.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Cont'd from martial arts post
    You have read the Bible and you say you know it. If there is an Antichrist (a
    charismatic global leader who will decieve all) and makes people take the mark (
    an implanted device that allows for buying and trade, etc) will you take it?
    As you may know this device already exists and there was a family who
    volunteered to try it. What would this mean to you? You seem like a person who
    isnt easily persuaded, would you actually get this? Why or why not? I am pretty
    sure you have been watching the world, do you think we will one day be closer to
    a "one world government" one world currency, universal belief system?



    If this is possible, who are going to be the possible winners and losers of this
    system? Please don't tell me everyone wins!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Globalization...
    Yes, there is a lot of change happening now. No, I would not accept an implant,
    because I'm pretty sure that it would only be a matter of time before companies
    figured out a way to beam advertizing directly into my brain 24/7. They pretty
    much do it now!

    If a global government is in the cards, and it probably is, like all
    governments, my support or lack thereof will hinge on the form this government
    takes. Watch yourself; the slipperiest slope of all is the one that gives too
    much control to governments! Sadly, I really think this has already happened in
    the USA. Your votes don't count anymore, and you have no power to legally
    impliment democracy. Your leaders are pre-chosen, and thier policies are not
    their own. Ask yourself; where did Obama get the half-billion dollars he spent
    on his campaign? So who REALLY runs the country?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - And the winners are...
    ...whoever makes the system! 1% of the world's population already owns 90% of
    it's wealth. The only thing left to do is reduce the other 99% to absolute
    penury. When that happens, and when it gets hard enough, people might actually
    do something about it. For now, we act as though the bank actually deals in
    real money, when it's just handing out cyber-digits at high interest, then
    taking your very REAL property when you can't pay it back (and it's impossible
    to pay back-there's more debt out there than there is money, so SOMEONE will
    have to default!).

    My advice? Learn to live with as little as possible, and learn to be happy with
    it. Get out of debt any way you can, and invest in Canadian currency - it'll
    reach parity with the greenback shortly.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s possible  - what 1-2-3
    It is like anything, if you want to know how to be a nuclear scientist,
    microbiologist, or neurosurgeon you would study in that field. The comments from
    the atheist is information that is regurgitate, like carbon dating(theory) which
    alone can be off millions of years and is unfortunate, because at the end of
    life the same God that they protest against, will be the same they cry out too
    before eternity. I will stick to the Bible and Jesus Christ for my info and plan
    accordingly.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Agnostic1  - Is it the right god?
    No no no, it is not regurgitate. Taking information from a 2000+ year old book
    is regurgitate.



    What makes you so sure that the christian god is the real one? What if you're
    wrong and the invisible pink unicorn is the real one?



    I do believe in a god, or allah, or whatever your culture would call an
    omnipotent being, but due to the very nature of it, I shouldn't be able to
    understand it. One of the bible's biggest fallacies is that it describes god as
    being so powerful and unknowable, but then goes on to tell us exactly what he
    wants, what he does, etc.



    If I die a god-hating atheist and am called to trial in god's courtroom,
    wouldn't he give me some kind of mercy because I didn't have any solid evidence
    to believe in him? I mean, he designed my highly advanced brain so I could think
    and analyze and criticize, but then expects me to believe in him without
    evidence? It seems like a ridiculous expect...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Carbon dating...
    What you are talking about is radioactive isotope decay. Carbon dating is only
    good for around 14,000 years, due to the decay rate of carbon-14. Other
    isotopes can be found for other time-spans. Generally, the margin of error for
    dating with decay rates is roughly 1%. So, if you want to date somthing that is
    thousands of years old, you have to settle for being tens of years off. If you
    want to date something billions of years old, you error can be millions of years
    off. But you can't be millions of years of with carbon-14 dating; it's only
    good up to about 60,000 years. Check your facts, dude!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Correction!
    In the above post, I state 2 lengths of carbon 14 dating. The second, around
    60,000 years is the correct one. Sorry for the confusion!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s CHar  - Christian Persecution News
    antheist 1

    On the home page they have Christian Persectuion News. Do you think this is
    propaganda? I haven't even read any of the articles yet, but the headlines do
    captivate me. I want to let you know that if these stories are true, we as
    Christians are NOT commanded to seek revenge. I want you to know that I fear
    the day that this comes closer to home. I don't know who my persecutors are
    going to be, but can you tell me that it won't be by atheists? Honestly I feel
    like Christians converse with atheists out of love, and atheists converse with
    me out of hate. We don't think bad of atheists or any other religion, because
    we are commanded to love them.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Persecution...
    "Noone here wants to protect a g%$%@mned atheist! I hope someone
    bloodies you up good!"

    -Police Sergeant, south USA.

    Persecution happens. My skin colour once got me held down and spit on. I grew
    up in a place where I was one of the only people of my race (not important.
    Neither is the race of the people who did it) and religion. I got in fights on
    a weekly basis for 8 years because of it, hence; the martial arts obsession.

    I don't seek revenge either, because it only adds to the problem. I can't tell
    you who will persecute you or why. I would be lying if I said I could.
    However, I honestly can't call to mind an atheist who went on a
    christian-killing rampage.

    I keep telling you I don't hate the people, I just believe the religions are
    harmful, and should be stopped somehow. Can you tell me a fundamentalist
    christian won't try to kill me?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Andrew
    Man... I am a Christian, and I see what you mean... I agree that religious
    fundamentalists just might try to kill you, or someone else who apposes their
    views... I'm really sorry for the way you've been treated for the sake of your
    ethnicity, it's a darn shame, especially if it was ever done in the name of
    religion... It just so happens that I oppose religion as well. There has been
    way too much harm done in the world in the name of religion. I am a
    Christian... that's my title if you will. I'm not religious, I have only placed
    my faith and trust in the God of the universe who holds my heart and soul
    forever when this life ends... certainly not religion, only a relationship with
    the God who made me and died to save me from the consiquences of my own sin and
    rebellion.

    Peace friend :)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - That may be...
    ...the only reply I've seen thus far that actually follows the teachings of
    Jesus. Thank you for your understanding.



    Peace be with you as well, friend.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Fundamentalist Christians
    Can you point me to a fundamentalist christian website that promotes hate and
    death to non christians? I will go on that site, and tell them that they are
    full of it, and don't know what they are talking about. And that they should be
    ashamed of themselves for ruining the name of Christianity and they need to
    repent and trust in the Lord again.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yup;
    Do a google search for 'American Taliban' and you'll find a LOT of info on
    people who want a christian version of sheriah law. I would fight that with my
    dying breath!

    "We should go in, kill all their leaders, and convert them to
    Christianity!"

    -Anne Coulter

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Anne Coulter
    Anne Coulter is hilarious. I guess you don't understand her sarcasm. You
    should call her and ask her if this is what she would really do. I don't even
    know the context of this quote but i can tell that it is sarcasm. Because i
    used to hate her. But now i know she is just as passionate as you are to stop
    religious crimes.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Coulter...
    ...Continuously calls for the invasion of my country, the killing of my people,
    and the forced conversion of everyone I care about to her religion. And I'm
    just a Canadian! Imagine how many friends she's helped USA make elsewhere!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Just Me  - Persecution
    "I honestly can't call to mind an atheist who went on a christian-killing
    rampage."

    Didn't Chairman Mao eradicate Christianity from China? Or, am I mistaken? I
    may be.....just asking....
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yes, he did!
    In order to establish a Communist-Personality cult. He also ended the Emperor's
    dynasty, which was said to be divine as well. This is just my opinion, but I
    see little difference between the religious rule of the Taliban, or the Saudis,
    than the personality-cult rulership of the Communists, or Nazis. Pretty much
    one religion being run out by another religion.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - 2nd law
    Entropy... This proves that if I do smash all those things, that is that state
    that it really wants to be in. All those things were in order before I smashed
    them, now they will never be the same again, unless a creator puts the lego
    model back together. I feel and know as a human that I am extremely ordered.
    Let me know if you think you are disordered. So in my mind, to believe that my
    ordered human body is not as ordered as the Lego castle that my daughter made
    doesn't make sense. The ordered lego castle had to be created. The human body
    of extreme order had to be created. I cannot believe that this house, this
    chair, this lego castle, got big banged into its order, let alone this amazing
    human body.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Our bodies...
    It takes 15 lbs. of pressure form the side to cause a permanent knee injury.
    The worst part about that is that for some stupid reason the pain doesn't warn
    you about it until AFTER the LCL pulls the meniscus apart. Poor design.
    There's a spot on the pelvis that can be hit with about the force of a
    two-year-old jumping that will split it. Again, this injury doesn't heal
    without surgery. Pathetic design. The topper for me, though, is the fact that
    our spines are not designed to be upright! There are a host of medical problems
    that are unique to humans that are caused directly by a body that is not made to
    be bipedal.

    And if that's not enough to convince you that there's either no design, or a bad
    designer, look up the larangeal nerve in giraffes.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tabitha  - Revelation
    The revelation is awesome. Our bodies were not formed to walk upright but on
    our knees (in prayer). I too agree religion is the cause of our problems.
    Christ did not intend for religion to be the way but a personal relationship
    with Him. I know God exists because I choose to believe. I choose to regognize
    His hand on my life and accept His mercy and grace 2 me. I have called on His
    name in impossible times and He delivered me. My church failed me, my family
    failed me, my friends were not able 2 help but God has never failed, let go, or
    ran scared. I need look no further than my own failure 2 know He exists, He
    cares and He is not fair by our standards of justice. Thank God He is not.
    Don't worry my devout Christians do not understand this statement either. You
    see our world is so marred with sin, we can not even begin to get it back to the
    way God intended it. It is not the Athiest, homosexual or politician that need...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Back to Evolution
    I am a college eductated person who has had to take science courses, biology,
    chem, microbiology, physics, etc. But I am not well versed in all things
    science ok, so bear with me. First law says energy cannot be created or
    destroyed... In my simple mindedness I think about this house that I live in,
    their was a creator, the chair I sit in their was a creator, at LEGOLAND there
    had to be a creator of all those models. If I smash all these things that I
    mentioned will they spring back to form after 1 year, 10 years, a billion years?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Simple answer, no.
    Natural selection would fill the vacancy left by thier destruction in short
    order. Keep in mind that it took 4.2 billion years to get where we are now, and
    another 10 billion just to put the planet here in the first place. Neither of
    us can wrap our heads around that kind of time! Natural selection IS NOT
    RANDOM! It has ONE, simple criteria; be the best at getting copied. Anything
    inferior gets weeded out eventually. Consider; for you to be here at all, from
    the time of the first single-celled organisms, your ancestors have survived long
    enough to reproduce in an unbroken line! There wasn't even ONE mistake in that
    process, or you, like well over 99% of species that have ever existed, wouldn't
    exist. That is how special every living thing is. That is how spectacular life
    is!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - antitheist 1 cont'd 4
    ... Christians that actually read the Bible should know that fear of death is
    unecessary. I would ask a Christian that was afraid of death, why are you a
    Christian? You have believed all these years that when you die you are going to
    go somewhere either heaven or hell, if you have read the Bible and loved your
    creator the Bible says you will be going back to him. Could it be that you
    weren't as righteous as we all thought you were. Well if so, apologize now.
    He/She should know that the Bible says He is a forgiving God, who does NOT want
    people to go to hell.



    As far as the 6 year old. God loves children, they will all enter the Kingdom
    of Heaven. Parents should rest assure that they are there and try their best to
    reunite with them.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I have to differ bigtime here...
    Those children he so loves; why did he kill them, then? If the world was drown
    in the great flood because it was evil, what did all the infants have to do with
    it? Why punish them?

    And on the bible thing, there is no hell mentioned therein. The Hebrew word is
    'sheol.' The grave. According to the bible, the penalty for sin is death,
    'Even thier memory shall be erased.' The eternal suffering seems to be reserved
    for fallen angels, because god, being omnipotent, can't destroy them...

    As to the kid; who provided the leukemia? And the parents for whom no word is
    bad enough? If god didn't want people to be damned, then he shouldn't have made
    people who should be.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Antitheist 1 cont'd 3
    He knows we experience anguish here. Christianity works for me because it makes
    logical sense. If you love your neighbor and love your enemies, seek not
    earthly riches, and believe there is eternal life free of anguish in a place
    called heaven, then your life here on earth would be stress free. Some
    Christians are scared of the tribulations that are to come and are scared of
    death. I challenge them to be true Bible readers and they would conquer that
    fear. I find it disheartening when people claim a faith but don't even know
    what they are getting into...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I...
    ...fully agree. If something makes logical sense to you, then there's every
    reason to pursue it. I also can't stand people who claim to be religious and
    don't even know the first thing about it. Knowledge is the key to everything!
    With the right information, anything can be done.

    However, I can't hold up god as a solution whenever I don't know something.
    Most people who say 'god' really mean that they just don't know, and aren't
    willing to look.

    And I don't fear the hereafter; I don't believe there is one. And I never
    suffered for the 14billion years in the herebefore that I wasn't around. As
    long as I have a good lot o' morphine when my time comes, I'm fine.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - antitheist cont'd 2
    I am not a Christian out of fear that I will go to hell. I am a Christian
    because personally it makes logical sense. I believe I was created by a
    Creator. The Bible which is to you "supposedly" the word of God has
    nothing but proper instruction on how to live your life, and love your neighbor,
    and love your spouse, and even love your enemies. The very act of reading the
    Bible puts me into check everytime I want to curse someone out on the road or in
    this website.



    ALL of life's questions ARE answered in the Bible. So you ask, "Why does a
    6 year old die from cancer?" Why do I have cancer? God does not use
    disease as punishment. The Bible tells us that this life is not the final life.
    God knows we anguish here...



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I'm sorry.
    I'm sorry that I'm not with you on this one. And I have no idea how to reply to
    your illness except with honesty, however cold it may sound. Suffering only
    makes sense if the universe doesn't care about it. And if this whole thing is
    designed to test us, then why do animals suffer as well? Why do gazelles fear
    cheetahs? Wouldn't a merciful god design animals that wanted to be eaten by
    predators? No, no god would create a world where infant animals are the ones to
    get eaten first, 'cause they're the slowest.

    The best I can say to you on cancer is; grit your teeth, and decide that you'll
    never stop fighting!

    I was once asked what martial arts has to say about hope. I've studied for over
    20 years now, and I couldn't think of anything. Then I realized why - hope is
    irrelevant, a distraction. Never trust to hope what you must do with your own
    fists.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - antitheist cont'd 1
    If you look around people are being heavily influenced more by atheists than by
    Christians. You are right, NOT a lot of people are converting to Christianity,
    because "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
    life, and there are few who find it.

    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits" (Matthew 7:14)



    I have only been truely converted to Christianity for a year. I started
    studying the prophecies of the Bible, and they trip me out. The prophecies of
    the bible are more than just earthquakes, and famines, etc. They speak mostly
    of apostasy and the kinds of things that are going to be done in the name of
    Christianity. What you see occuring presently in the name of Christianity is
    exactly what the Bible says was going to happen and denounces...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - 'Tis by thier fruits...
    ...that I know them! Show me a government that doesn't use religion, including
    personality cults, to control it's people! I'm sorry to say it like this, and
    you may be angry with what I'm about to say, but it doesn't make it less true;
    it is what is being used to control you.

    You see, at first, they're nice, friendly, always ready to talk, always seeming
    to have the right answer. I don't know your church, but if it follows every one
    I've been to, soon they'll start guilting you out of money. Next comes
    separating you from the people you care about. One of my friends had to leave
    her fiancee because he wasn't part of her church. I never heard from her again.


    "Religion is the opiate of the people." -Karl Marx
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - anitheist 1
    Antitheist 1

    I believe that I could be friends with atheists and I actually have a friend
    that is atheist. But yes, dialogue is good.



    I want you to know what i feel though. As much as you think that Christianity
    is in the forefront for taking over the world and causing mass destruction, it
    is the opposite. Again please DO NOT lump Catholicism to Jesus and true Bible
    believers, they are not.



    In the Christians eyes Christianity is becoming less and less popular. Obama
    claimed that America was no longer a Christian nation. Europe is now a
    spiritual wasteland. Asian countries are not Christian. The trend is towards
    other religions, new ageism, humanism,and no religion. Christians are the
    minority.



    I expect to be killed for believing in Jesus in the near future. I hope its not
    by someone like you. Contrary to what you think, I am not ordered to kill in
    the name of Jesus Christ, but...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Killed for belief...
    Though I'm sure there are those on this site who would disagree, you are under
    no threat at all from me (unless you feel that another point of view is a
    threat). I'm not into killing at all, and I would most certainly refuse to go
    to war in anything other than a medical capacity.



    I also teach martial arts, and while I'm quite well versed in the techniques
    involved in killing, I'm also very well versed in the psychology as well. Trust
    me, taking a life is nearly as bad as having it taken, and I would do so only to
    protect someone who couldn't protect themselves, and even then I would search
    for another way.



    While this has nothing to do with any set of morals laid out for me by someone
    else, I do call to mind a saying from the buddhist monk Takuan, who helped a
    Japanese Shogun establish a peace in Japan lasting more than 200 years (look him
    up; he's quite extraordinary!).

    "To kill is easy. To UN...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I hate it when I get cut off...
    ...What's the character limit to these posts? Is it possible to install a
    counter?



    Anyways, the full saying was, "To kill is easy, to UNkill is
    impossible."
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tabitha  - except
    4 God
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Training and Martial arts
    I think martial arts is fun. I like the Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai styles. I want
    to be a Jiu Jitsu champ one day. When I used to train in those arts and trained
    for general physical preparedness, my motto has been be prepared for the unknown
    and the unknowable. I like that motto and it suits me being a Christian, as a
    know that my Saviour is coming back for me and that hour is unknown and
    unknowable.



    I feel like you are training for some upcoming event. Like you know as well as I
    that all hell is going to break loose. We are probably training for the same
    event but we are not on the same team. Although you say you will not personally
    be the one on the front line burning Christians at the stake, are you going to
    be there to defend me?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Never...
    There's nothing good that comes out of torture. Period. I'm training to be
    able to adapt to what comes. I intend to take no side if I can help it, and if
    I do have to take a side, I would only go to war as a medic (I'm trained for
    emergency medicine so I don't have to do the whole 'conscientious objector'
    thing...they won't allow atheists to do that without HUGE difficulties!). I
    will not harm anyone or anything if there's another way.

    Think of your goal while fighting; it's almost unheard of that the goal of a war
    is to kill. Usually, killing is just the only way people can seem to think of
    to get what they really want...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - CHAR
    CHAR...be on guard against Anti-theist. This one is a wolf. You'll need all
    your spiritual armament if you continue addressing him. It is nice to see your
    concern but be aware of Hebrews 6:4-6. This one has tested the goodness and has
    flat out rejectd it. There is no return to repentance for him. No matter how
    much you try. He has confessed in other posts as being a beliver for many
    years. And now rejects the gift he was given.

    Char, Stay true to Jesus.

    Merry Christmas!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I'm flattered!
    But I'm no wolf. Just a guy who's asking questions. And here's a question for
    you; who runs the Atheist Central website? That would be Ray Comfort, in a
    direct attempt to bring guys like me into communication with guys like you!



    So far, you've done a bang-up job!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Nick  - I would like to ask...
    Why this "Wildly Successful" campaign failed to show up at Cornell,
    despite it being on their list of schools to visit. Is it because they are
    afraid of a school notorious for it's dedication to modern science? Or is it
    because they don't like the rain?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Sorry
    Antitheist 1



    I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your previous religion that seems
    to have been super legalistic. Was it like a Jewish cult or something I can't
    find what you said your relgion used to be or what you grew up in. Religions
    and cults like that are what Christians are battling. They are not battling
    atheists. We are battling those who do terrible things in the name of
    Christianity. If you read the New Testament, you would see that God saw ALL of
    this coming. That is why the Bible trips me out.



    The New Testament is mostly about how to distinguish the wolf in sheeps
    clothing. It's crazy but our God has warned us that people will pretend to be
    the Light (Christians), but are an abomination. It's pretty scary because it is
    true.



    I think your past religion was Jewish and they only believe in the Old
    Testament. I need to get my theology straight but, there is a reaso...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - My past...
    I will not name the specific religion I was in, because I don't wish to spread
    any spite against those particular people (again, people are not my enemies,
    unless they choose it, but religious ideologies ARE). I was brought up in a
    messianic jewish sect. They followed both old and new testament to the letter,
    which meant no christmas, kosher-food, Saturday sabbaths, and outdated holidays
    (check out Passover - we observed that literally).

    Very observant of you. I'm impressed at your knowledge.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Why i'm still talking to you
    The reason why i'm on livingwaters.com is because this is a Christian website
    and I wanted to keep in touch with other Christians. Why you are here still
    puzzles and offends me.



    It sucks that you think that Chrisitianity in particular is evil because they
    believe in "killing" You are way off base and are making a hasty
    generalization by saying this. Its like me saying ALL atheists HATE Christians,
    and this IS what I get from you being here, attacking what we belive in on OUR
    websites.



    You say you are a defender? You are a defender of hate and intolerance. You
    make hasty generalizations about people here and you don't even know the true
    premises of their beliefs.



    Your problem is with CATHOLICS! They are my problem too! YOU CANNOT put ME in
    the same category as Catholics that did the inquisitions etc etc. That is like
    an African American saying that they hate me because I put t...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Offence noted.
    Your honesty is refreshing! Please, take mine in trade.

    First, I'm here because Ray's campaign went into places outside his christian
    arena. I'm merely returning the favour. If it's a dialogue with people who
    aren't christian that he seeks; here I am. I read every post directed at me,
    and answer as best I can. You may take offense, which is your right, or you
    could try asking a few questions like, why have none of the conversion attempts
    by christians worked? What drove me out of religion? How could we work
    together? Instead, what I get directed at me ranges from puzzlement, to anger,
    to downright hatred (which I must admit I direct back when it comes). cont...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char, cont2...
    Point 2; Yes, I do lump religion into a category. While there are some
    extraordinary people I've met who are religious, religions tend to lump the
    whole world into two categories: believers and heretics. I think that the
    parable of the good Samaritan was trying to warn against that, and so I do my
    utmost to take people case-by-case. I do not find christianity particularly
    evil, but rather particularly vocal. And politically powerful. How powerful?
    Well, the real reason marijuana (not just useful as medicine, but also for
    fibers, oil, fuel alcohol, and which is one of the fastest growing plants on the
    planet) is illegal where I live is because, "Marijuana causes young people
    to fall under the demonic influence of jazz music."
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char, cont3...
    I AM a defender! Of reason! Lives! Frienships! Ideas! My kids education!

    I think that you've made a few generalizations about me as well. When you make
    them, I try to answer. This is how dialogue occurs. I've stated several times
    that I am fighting AGAINST hate and intolerance! I'm an atheist. Did you know
    that only %13 of the USA would vote for me, just based on that fact? If, one
    day you were to become an atheist, how would the people around you react when
    you told them? Try to imagine telling your family, friends, boss, minister,
    etc. Then you might have some clue what it cost me. Oh yes, there is hate and
    intolerance still in the world. The way to fight it is understanding, and that
    starts with dialogue.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char, cont4...
    When I first read your post, I must admit that my first reaction was anger, but
    as I read more, I found that you were trying to be honest, which I found
    touching. We may never agree on theology, but I can respect honesty.



    So to sum up, I'm here because it is a safe place for ME to have a conversation
    with people who, when spoken to in person, couldn't stand the fact of what I am.
    I'm here to get people thinking! I'm here to talk with you.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Just a thought
    I think atheists believe that "You and me baby aint nothing but mammals,
    lets do it like they do on the Discovery Channel.." I ask you then why
    would an atheist want to get married? If I were an atheist, I wouldn't get
    married, I would spread my seeds to the ends of the earth!



    No wait should I listen to the advice of my chimp(5th cousin), she's been
    around for awhile, has more experience than me, you know she is older and
    wiser... She said that I shouldn't degrade myself like that. She said the God
    said that marriage was good, and that we needed a partner so that we could LOVE
    one another and be faithful, and have a FAMILY.



    WHAT? I can't hump legs anymore? You're saying next year I have to have
    offspring with the same man? What? I was looking to have a baby with the cute
    Pitbull next door. He's hot.



    I hate God! That Pitbull was a HOTTIE!



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - WIsh i could take this back
    ...But i was just trying to make a point. I don't believe any bad thing about
    atheists, nor do i believe they are all sexually immoral. So sorry if it came
    out that way...



    Antitheist 1

    I only had a few minutes to look up the albatross, but yeah seems like they
    exhibit relational monagamy and sexual monogamy which is pretty cool. But do
    they have morals, and values, do they have justice, mercy, and grace?



    I think only humans have that. Therefore I do not believe that we evolved from
    any kind animal.



    Maybe the problem is is that our image of Eve as a beautiful woman is wrong.
    Maybe she had chest hairs and looked like a neanderthal! Haha just a thought.



    Again I apologize for the previous post. I didnt mean to imply anything.



    Are there atheists who don't believe in evolution?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Accepted.
    I will personally hold nothing against people who offer an apology. There are
    times when I dearly wished I could take something back, too.

    On animals with social systems; that's pretty much every social animal! To give
    you an idea, there is a scale (and darn it, I can't remember the name; I'll look
    it up and tell you) that measures the complexity of language, assigning a value
    to things like number of sounds, how many ways those sounds combine to make
    words, how many different kinds of sentences can be made, etc. On this scale,
    you average songbird rates 1. Ravens rate around 4. English and dolphin-speak
    both rate 9. World's most advanced language? Humpback whales, at 13. We're
    just not as smart as we think we are!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - On Evolution...
    I personally find the evidence supports evolution. However, evolution and
    atheism are two different things. To be atheist, one simply doesn't find any
    reason to think there's a god. You are also atheist; there's thousands of gods
    that you don't believe in! I just go one further.

    There are other theories about the origin of life, however I find less basis to
    support them than evolution. Those theories include things like; Designed by
    ALIENS (Raelianism...strange religion, that, though the base philosophy is
    decent), landed on asteroids (panspermia), genetic alteration by E.T. (weird),
    and even the idea that everything is alive (Taoism). There's probably many more
    than that.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Eh?
    What are you on about? Don't tell me that you actually buy into that lie about
    how the only people who have any morals at all are christians! I'll have you
    know I'm happily married, with two daughters. There are OTHER cultures and
    religions in which people have families! Strangely, athiests are actually
    people too, and we are capable of compassion, empathy and, dare I even say
    it-love!

    Just because you admit that without the giant-policeman-in-the-sky you're just a
    randy teenager who seems to have an affinity for pitbulls, doesn't mean that the
    rest of us follow that.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Quote me
    Where did I say that only Christians have morals? If anything I said all
    Christians sin! In fact I said they sin everyday, and sometimes they sin
    horribly (immorality)! The 10 commandments are NOT rules to follow so that
    people like you or any other "Christians" may say that we are holy and
    righteous. The 10 commandement were made by God so that He may PROVE that ALL
    OF US SIN. Whoever says they don't sin are just like the pharisees and thing
    that legalism is the way to heaven.



    Christians belive in repentance (turning away from sin) and believe that God
    (our creator) loves us so much that He sacrificed his Son so that we may be with
    Him in heaven. He is my final inheritance and I am His. And if you believe that
    that was sufficient for the wiping away of your sins, then you will be in Heaven
    with Him. It's beautiful and amazing.



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - This may sound glib, but...
    ...why aren't any of the dying christians I've met ever delighted about it?

    I find all that neat stuff I learn every time I care to look beautiful and
    amazing.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - answer
    You havent met enough dying Christians.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Counter...
    I work in the emergency services, and my wife is a palliative home-care nurse.
    I'm pretty sure that I've seen my fair share of dying people of all stripes.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Dying...a true story...
    When I was working for a bank, I was called to tell some homeless people to
    leave the ATM vestibules (I know, many people would ask why they couldn't just
    stay there, until they had to pick up used needles, or had been attacked, or had
    to pay for damage and cleanup) and send them to the shelter three blocks away.
    One woman, who I was later told was dying of liver cancer, called out to jesus
    to force me to leave her alone, so she could smoke...whatever she was smoking in
    the bank. When I was totally unmoved, she got on her knees, and begged the
    devil himself to kill me slowly in front of her. Again unmoved.

    So she went to the bank machine, took out $20, and left, cursing me with every
    deity she could think of. When I picked up the ATM reciept she spit on and
    threw at me, I saw that her balance was over $400,000.

    Weird, how dying people work...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...and sorry...
    I have an ex-friend who claimed that I because I'm an atheist I can have no
    reason to be nice, pay bills on time, and not go around killing random people.
    The continued claim that even when I did something nice, it was just a selfish
    guise to get what I wanted finally lead me to terminate the friendship. I'm
    sorry if I projected that old wound onto you, Char.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Raghu Mahajan  - Does Not Make Sense
    What you said is totally correct. I could not agree with you more. But I do not
    see how your last line, "He (Jesus) is the only one who has earned the right
    to be lord in anyone's life," connects with anything else you said. Why does
    he have to be the only one ? I beg to differ. Jesus was awesome, agreed - he
    healed and pacified people, agreed ! But proclaiming him to be a unique
    "Lord" is not the right spirit of things.

    I, given my personality and character, might prefer Mohammad to Christ, or may
    prefer Hinduism to Mohammad. Every religion has its plusses and minuses: the
    plusses are what have kept them alive till today, the minuses are why you will
    never have a universal religion in which people believe in one conception of
    God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Anonymous  - the natural man does not accept God.
    your summary is honest about you, but your theological declaration is flawed to
    the core. You assume that following Christ is a religion, while the others
    clearly are! Christianity starts and ends with Jesus as the source of all
    righteousness, not dependent on our works at all.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Which is why...
    ...I've noticed how little christians spend on thier non-religious meeting
    places.



    Sorry, A, but I call BS on the not a religion thing! You go to a church, pay
    tithes, sing songs, pray in groups, and believe in an invisible man in the sky.
    There is nothing NOT religious about that! And nothing that distinguishes it
    form any other religion in the world. Futhermore, until you've attended a
    mosque, synagogue, or temple, you are not qualified to give an opinion on the
    difference between religions.

    And if your works don't count, why do anything?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - What is to come
    antitheist1

    Do you know what is going to happen in the future? Well it is actually
    happening now. Christians are being persecuted for believing in Christ. They
    are being told to denounce Christianity and they will live. Not so much here in
    America but in other countries.



    One day someone like you just might be involved in my dying for my faith?
    Internment camps are here! And Obama is NOT a Christian! Expect a Muslim
    takeover, hopefully you side with Christians before you side with Muslims. I
    would rather you bow down to nobody than you bow down to the antichrist.
    Remember this.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Bowing...
    I think Obama might disagree with you, but that's always the standard argument;
    The people in my religion who don't do what I want them to do aren't REAL
    (insert religion name here).

    And I follow no religion. They all kill people. I side with anyone who works
    at STOPPING the killing, and as best I can tell, religions and political systems
    don't do that at all.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Zen?
    antitheist1

    Zen is not in the Bible. Some falsely converted Christians might practice Zen
    and not know any better. Look up "emergent church" and
    "ecumenism" this is what true Christians are fearing and trying to
    combat by preaching the Gospels. Rick Warren and contemplative prayer, is so
    not Biblical.



    I know it is hard for you to understand but all Christians are not created
    equal. Not all "Christians" will be recognized by our GOd on judgement
    day. WE Christians feel so bad about this issue, that is why we are fervent
    about preaching the Gospels.



    Its not about what church you go to either. Christ's church are those who
    follow the Bible only, for it is our Creators instructions and love letter to
    us. We don't need one person like a pastor or a "messenger" from God to
    know His Word. It is available to anyone who opens their heart to it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Char;
    Zen isn't even in it's OWN religious texts; it doesn't have any. It is simply
    the system of letting go of your attachments in an attempt to see the truth
    without bias. But you would know that if you had studied it. And I don't
    follow that creed, either. It has been used to justify atrocities, just like
    every other religion I've seen.

    And while I understand the you feel that there are christians and then REAL
    christians, I note that EVERY christian tells me that they're the ones going to
    heaven, as if they actually knew. And if they didn't need priests, why do they
    all keep employing them?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Bible commands us to kill?
    antitheist1

    you said "If you follow your bible, then you are compelled to hunt me down
    and kill me. " Please quote a Bible verse that proves this.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sure thing!
    Exodus 22:18. There are various translations of this verse, specifically the
    word, 'witch,' which in the English versions is used often. However, the KJV
    had that verse adapted to justify the wiping out of the druids. The word was
    originally 'wickedness' or 'evil.' The word, 'wicked' was actually an adverb
    describing followers of the wiccan religion. Thus, the verse, in it's original
    form commands you to kill anyone who is evil by biblical definitions. I fit
    that bill, as I refuse to recognize the validity of the first 4 commandment, and
    do not see it as wrong.

    This one verse was the justification for the Salaam witch trials.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - What do you like about the Bible?
    antitheist 1

    You say you have read the Bible, is there anything you like about it?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - YES!
    It's a wonderful collection of legends that has influenced our culture and
    collective understanding of the world. And there's a cool story about Abner
    killing a guy with his spear-butt! There's a lot to be gained from reading the
    bible, but I don't agree on holding it as unquestionable truth. The moment we
    lose flexibility, that's when we snap!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - When we snap
    You said the moment we lose flexibilty we snap. Think of your children. Do you
    follow the same "flexibility" with them? There are guidelines to be
    followed, what happens when they aren't? People snap, or they become lost, and
    unreprimandable. Don't tell me you are one of those parents who have no rules,
    and let your children do whatever they want, because if you didn't you would not
    be the cool dad and you are being unfair.



    Trying to follow the good teachings of our Creator keeps my life in line.
    Whether you like it or not, they keep you life in check too. Animals don't have
    this!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Daddyhood!
    Yes, I let my children do whatever they want. I also educate them about the
    fact that thier actions have consequences. I teach them to make choices, and
    understand the results. This is more difficult with my girls at a young age, as
    they are too young to understand long-term effects (I do modify thier choices,
    but in the end, I never issue orders) but I've always hated it when people in
    authority tell me to do something, 'because I SAID so!'

    I think that children will be as intelligent as we allow them to be. It's our
    job to support from behind, not drag them in our own direction from the front.
    But that's just me.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Catholic
    Jason L

    I used to be Catholic too. Then I actually read the Bible and I realized that
    the prophecies that are in the gospels and in revelation are talking about false
    teachers and false prophets that are rampant or actually are in the Catholic
    Church. If you struggle with Catholicism, just go to a Christian church
    instead. If you feel uneasy about praying to saints and Mary, you should.



    Praying to them is idolatry, praying in front of any image is idolatry. Just
    talk to Him wherever you go wherever you are, He is listening!



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - studying
    antitheist1

    You are right i havent studies zen, why? Because i am not trying to disprove or
    even care for Zen. You haven't even studied Christianity, and you are trying to
    debunk it. All you have to do is actually read the Bible with an open mind. We
    do believe though that you might not understand it because your heart is hard,
    and unwilling to understand it.



    You want to stick to your inate "morals". You mentioned in a post that
    you like sex. The reason why you probably hate Christianity is because you want
    to be like an animal and fornicate with anyone and anything. Christianity hates
    sexual immorality.



    WEll guess what? That is what distinguishes humans created by God, from evolving
    animals. Show me an animal species that is evolving into having morals and gets
    married, so that they can live in love and monagamy then I will drop my faith.




    God is just and righteous and...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Wrong again!
    I'm happily married. I have two daughters. I love my family in exactly the
    same way that you love yours. I also had several girlfriends in the past, and
    though things didn't work out, I have no guilt for past fornications, as they
    were done in a consentual manner, and no harm came of them.



    Animal species that marry? YUP! Look up the mating habits of the albatross.
    It's really quite a touching way of life.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Are you serious?
    antitheist1

    You said that without Catholicism there would be no Chrisianity? And you said
    you read the Bible? Acts 2, was the creation of the first church at Pentacost.
    Catholic evil was not created at Pentacost. Get your info straight. Christians
    don't believe that Catholicism is Catholic, Catholicism is a cult!In fact we
    believe that the Papacy is the antichrist spirit.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - My facts;
    My facts are dead straight. First, Pentacost is a Jewish holiday. Second,
    christianity started as a cult in Rome, and is still a cult, albiet an old one,
    in every sense of the word (I've addressed that one earlier), and third, Roman
    Catholicism was the only extant form of christianity for more than a millenium
    before the protestant reformation, and the innumerable subsequent splits. Get
    YOUR facts straight.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s jason L  - the truth in love
    www.HellTruth.com

    In the apostles creed which is recited in the Catholic mass every time.

    Wait.... before you judge, read it. It is beautiful and the word catholic in it
    is in lower-case and makes all the difference. "catholic" means
    universal.

    I was raised Catholic and had many struggles with the religion. When I gave my
    will and heart to Jesus, I looked at the world from a totally different lens. A
    lens of love. Believing the best in people and looking at the heart of the
    matter. Sure I have the same struggles with the Catholic faith. I consider
    myself a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ first. And at the dawn of The Day,
    God will look at the heart of everyone of his children.
    There are beautiful amazing people that will be in the Kingdom that were from
    all divisions of the Christian faith. The hard part is that there will not be
    some that you might expect to be there.
    God bless you...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Zen
    antitheist 1

    True Christians don't care for "Zen" nor do we care for other false
    teachings. Christians do know why atheists are so mad at us. They are mad
    because there have been so many bad people who were Chrisitians, and trust me we
    can't stand those people.





    Those people give Christianity a stinky name. And you should know that if you
    have really read the Bible, Christians aren't perfect! Just because you are
    Christian doesn't mean you don't struggle with righteousness.



    We do sin, we sin everyday. Saved Christians just don't sin as bad as they used
    to. Like before i was saved, i broke all ten commandments. Now i am convicted
    and don't want to be immoral again...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Zen...
    If you did your homework, you would know that there is nothing in Zen that
    disagrees with any other religion, christianity included. Until you've actually
    studied it, you can't assume a teaching or philosophy is false. What Zen
    DOESN'T have are commands given by god to kill people. christianity does.
    Those commands are still active, and they are what gives your religion a bad
    name.

    If you follow your bible, then you are compelled to hunt me down and kill me.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Jay10  - Another verse
    How about "Love your neighbor as yourself." or "Love those who
    persecute you." Do these verses not count?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...and counting!
    ...In the original Aramaic, the word 'neighbor' referred only to neighbors who
    were Jews, even within the gospels. Now, It so happens that in my family tree
    there are enough Jews to label me as 1/8th Jewish. Does that mean I get 1/8th
    the love? Don't laugh, it's being debated right now, with serious consequences
    for those caught in the middle.



    How about, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and
    mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own
    life, he cannot be My disciple.." Luke 14:26



    Does that count?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Peace  - Translation please...
    Please give me the translation of the word hate used in your reference to Luke
    14:26.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - Jews
    There is a natural body and a spiritual body (1Cor.15:42-50). We are all
    descendants of Adam (Rom.5:12-21). We all have a natural body and we die because
    of sin. We must be born again (Jn.3:3-6). Jesus is fully God and fully(Col.2:9))
    man, and perfect. He died and rose again For our justification. Anyone who puts
    faith in this is born again by His spirit. Abraham's spiritual descendants are
    people who have faith in God as Abraham did (Rom.9:6-8).





    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Case for Christ
    Has anyone who is not a Christ believer here, taken a book like A Case for
    Christ, and actually try to debunk it. Debunk it by actually looking into his
    points, and talking to the people he talked to in the book? He talks with
    archaeologists and such, who make the connection between archaeology and Jesus'
    time. You should call them up and ask them for yourselves. I am pretty sure if
    you are into intelligible conversation you would get something out of it. You
    would get a better knowledge of the possibility that the Bible was not a work of
    fiction.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...and here I thought...
    ...that the best case for christ would have been laid out in the bible! Don't
    worry, I've read, gone to bible studies, christian camps, and even a
    'hell-house' (sick practice that. Let's give the kids nightmares to show them
    how much jesus loves them!). While it seems that there's some evidence that a
    guy named 'Paul' actually wrote some of the NT, the fact that he wrote something
    doesn't prove the truth of what he wrote! In the investigative trade, it's
    called; corroboration!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Corroboration
    Corrobortaion that lead to excrutiating deaths? Why go through such pain?
    Either they were ALL crazy or their was actually a real story being told.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Why indeed...
    I would like to suggest something hugely contraversial to anyone in one of the
    three majour monotheistic faiths; Read Exodus as though it were a POLITICAL
    campaign. Pretend that everything Moses said was just him on a platform,
    telling people what god told him. Now, imagine, for a moment, that he might
    have been making it all up for his own ends (I won't get into debunking miracles
    just yet, so bear with me). Let's see what it got him: 1.an escape from
    Egyptian justice. 2. all the valuables from his followers. 3. the right to eat
    'sacrifices' (which I still hold to be priest-feed). 4. an army. 5. a
    bodyguard (Levites). 6. The right to not actually do any of the fighting he was
    ordering (Midianites, anyone?). Moses begins to sound a whole lot like Mao
    Tse-Tung when you look at his actions, not who he says ordered them.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Raghu Mahajan  - Why only Christianity ?
    This site claims to be fighting atheism, but it seems to me that there is a
    fundamental flaw in this whole business. Atheism is something that deals with
    God, and not with the "Christian" God. There are many more religions in
    the world, and many that are older than Christianity. If you debate the
    existence of God, why does Christianity need to come into the picture at all?
    Christ was a man who walked on this earth, so was Mohammad, so was Guru Nanak.

    Also much of what goes on here is just poking fun with bananas on people like
    Dawkins rather than serious debates. This is disturbing, to say the least.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Barley  - The benefits of believing in Jesus Christ
    There have been many men and women throughout the ages spreading many different
    gospels about their perception of God or their gods. Jesus Christ made plain
    the truth of his Heavenly Father. That, for instance, God's will is to heal.
    God's will is peace (peace of heart and mind) and prosperity. God's will is to
    treat others as you would want to be treated. God made clear that Jesus Christ
    was His son with power by raising him from the dead. Romans 1:4. Many well
    intentioned religions teach to treat others as you would want to be treated, but
    there is only one Jesus Christ. He is the only one who has earned the right to
    be lord in anyone's life.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Adam  - The "Why" on Why only Christianity
    As it was said, there are many "gods" in the world's religions and all
    have their own beliefs about them. There are millions in the Hindu religion
    compared to just one in Islam. So where do you even begin? The God of the Bible,
    Jehovah, very clearly makes the claim that He is the only God. Isa 44:16
    "...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
    Some say,like the Catholic Church, that the Christian God and the Muslim god are
    one in the same. They couldn't be more opposite. God also declares all other
    religions to be false. So, go ahead and start with the Bible and check out its
    claim. Atheists know deep in their hearts there is a God. The 2nd Law of
    thermodynamics demands a beginning. The Bible confirms that there was. "In
    the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth." The law of biogenesis
    states that life only comes from pre-existing life. Again, the Bible confirms
    th...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Raghu Mahajan  - Raghu Mahajan
    Jehovah says - "...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is
    no God."

    FYI, Krishna says the same thing in the Bhagvad Gita - read it if you want.

    FYI, Hinduism is monothiestic, not polythiestic. The philosophical foundations
    of Hinduism are more complex than what appears to many. "Ekam Brahma" -
    go check out any commentary on the Upanishads.


    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Raghu Mahajan
    FYI, Re: Creation. There is an incredibly complex premise of creation in
    Hinduism - you are referred to the text "Samkhyakarika" by Ishvar
    Krishna.

    Also, FYI, I have read the Bible fully. I truly appreciate what it says, but you
    need to put things in perspective - you need to separate the husk from the
    grain, my friend. It is the same with the Gita, or the Koran, or the Guru Granth
    Sahib, or any other religious book in the world.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Well put.
    But, uh...Bhrama, Shiva, and Vishnu? (I realize that they are supposedly just
    different personalities of the same individual, just putting it out there).



    That said, it's my understanding that only those born into hinduism may be hindu
    (correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been a while since I read the bhagvad gita),
    thus making it unavoidable that converts start thier own sect of hinduism: hari
    krishna.

    All in all, though, one of my favorite quotes comes from Deepak Chopra, who
    speaks often of vedic influence; 'Take solace in your discontentment, for
    contentment breeds stagnation.'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s JC  - NO...NO...NO....
    No Christians are NOT Catholic. You need to buff up on your Religious History.
    Well, I take that back. If you are getting your history of Christianity from
    your university, you are being duped. Those textbooks lie. There is a conspiracy
    against Christianity in the textbooks.

    So, don't look there for the truth. You must understand that religion is one
    thing and Christianity is another thing ALL TOGETHER.

    Get the facts before you start lumping everyone together into the same melting
    pot.

    Satan has fed you a lie.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sigh...
    I'm not saying what IS is what WAS. I'm saying that without Catholicism, there
    would be no christianity at all. You may not agree with your ancestors in
    religion, but they are indeed there!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh, and before I forget...
    ...the bible is a storybook. I'll take a textbook over that anytime.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s james  - What's the point
    Gods word says we should not cast our pearls before swine. It also says that
    truth is foolishness to the perishing so my question is why waste so much time
    with people who couldn't care a less what a child of God believes. After all God
    prepares the heart of a man who is willing to change. These people you guys are
    endlessly dissagreeing with to know availe are just a waste of your prescious
    time so what's the point???
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Marc  - The Beginning
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen. 1:1
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s tambria  - I have to ask why
    If someone went to the trouble of stopping me from reading a book, I would have
    to ask why What was their real motive. To stop free speech, a flow of idea's or
    maybe they were just afraid of the questions that would follow knowing they had
    no answer. Stay with what you, yourself believe but do not do so at the price of
    leaving everyone else with just one option, yours. Your way already states that
    its wrong.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Pharacee's asked this question,
    Jesus gives them this answer. Jesus of Nazareth is God's word made flesh! HE
    has come in the flesh to save us. I show you and others have shown you yet you
    still are obdurate and will not see. Here is Jesus' words for you about this
    situation: John 16:5-11. You are right about one thing the world is killing
    beleivers in Christ for this very reason.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mike  - LOL!!!
    Palease....

    Oh yea that totally did it for me. You unraveled the God mystery there.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mike  - Big words from an athiest.
    You know what really digs at me about atheists is that they are everything they
    complain about Christians being. With one big difference atheists have no
    repentance for the things they do because to them there is no right or wrong to
    repent for. They believe that social morality is the prevailing wind and that
    the only ones they have to answer to is their fellow man. But, I ask, what if
    man is as corrupt as you believe?

    You say that religion kills. I absolutely agree with you. Jesus Christ told us
    in Matthew that when the religious people of the world come to him he will say
    "depart from me I never knew you."

    Don't confuse religion with Christianity. being loved by and loving God is not
    the same as being in love with the idea of God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - They are!
    Man is every bit as corrupt. The difference here is that while you pray, I'm
    trying to do something about it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Interesting
    Man has been trying to "do somehting about it" since the beginning and
    ALL their attempts have failed to do so. Look around. Open your eyes and see
    that Man is the cause as a result of Sin infecting his life and everything
    around man's life. You are right saying man is corrupt. It is Sin living
    inside of us that causes this to happen. Sin is rebellion from God and Satan
    brought it to us in a lie that we still beleive. Christians do a great deal
    about it! They lead the way in most areas where no one else will go. Look at
    Mother Teresa's life, as one small example.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - So they have!
    Look at Ratzinger (former HJ) for another! Look at the IRA for a great example!
    And how about the whole Inquisition? Conquistadores? Perhaps we should take
    the example of King David? Or Joshua? How about Ehud?



    christianity takes place at sword-point. A nun going out and doing what her
    church didn't have the cojones to do only proves the point more. They sent a
    poor girl to do what they wouldn't, then fell over themselves, and thier stacks
    of gold, to take the credit for it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Again
    Again you spount you lack of any understanding. Focused on the actions of a few
    bad men and afix a tag for all of Chistians. It is the father of lies at work
    in you. I am of the position to say, "May the Lord rebuke you." and
    just let you fester in your works. You have no nothion of the Christain works
    that are in action today and working all the time, successfully. Food pantries,
    hospitals, homeless shelters and more and more.

    I am not backed into a corner. I have been set free.

    I suggest you bring your "or, or, or." argument to the trone when your
    time comes. That is whom your troble is with.

    Christianity takes place at the foot of the cross not the sword.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Sigh...
    ...And now you give me the lord's rebuke. You have tried so desperately to not
    understand me at all, even as a person, not just an antitheist. You are about
    as obtuse and arrogant an individual as I have ever met, religion excluded. You
    say nothing, and claim it has power.

    Professor of History actually got to me, not due to his message, but rather due
    to his compassion. You've just complained. In fact, I would say that you're
    worse than the pharasees. They at least cleaned thier dishes in part. You, on
    the other hand, just point out spots on other people's cutlery while ignoring
    the fact that we all have sinks that are full. Do better, G-man.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Here's a quote for you!
    Thanks to Ray Comfort's AthiestCentral blog for this gem!



    " Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace,
    but a sword."



    You are a liar, Glen.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Atheist from Croatia
    I can add nothing more to what Antitheist1 already said. Hail to him! This goes
    on my site where I'll give my own comments to this debate. It will be most in
    croatian language so you probably will not find it interesting to participate,
    but I want to show my visitors what is the right way to debunk christians and
    their god.
    Antiteist1, you are the man! There wasn't many participants who defended your
    point of view but your claims were enough to speak for all of us.

    Greetings from Croatia!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Good to have a fan!
    I was well aware that I wouldn't make too many friends here, but there's a war
    going on, and I, for one, have seen enough killing.



    What's your website? I'd love to log on!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Religious war is for Islam!
    Islam is wacky! The Koran is wacky! They do not have the same god as
    Christians! Forgive me for I have not read the whole Koran, but liberal media
    has informed me that Muslims believe that if they martyr themselves for the sake
    of their god and die (Jihad) they are promised 1000 virgins in heaven. The
    Christian God has no tenants about war! You say you have read the Bible but you
    fail to properly exegete what is written. Read Matthew 5 43-48, better yet all
    of chapter 5. Better yet i'll copy and paste myself.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s adet1  - really?
    Muslims believe in the same God as Christians, but instead of believing that God
    sent Christ as Savior, they believe that he revealed his message to the final
    prophet Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel (that name should be familiar to
    you)in the early 7th century. The Qur'an makes reference to numerous figures
    that also appear in the Bible, such as Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims
    believe that Jesus was a true prophet, but reject the doctrine of the Trinity on
    the grounds that it implies polytheism (co-equal, co-eternal, and co-substantial
    = three gods. get it?). Maybe you should take a few minutes to inform yourself
    instead of just spouting nonsense.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Qur'an
    Show me in the Qu'ran where their God says to love their enemies, and I will
    consider it possible that we are talking about the same God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Show me...
    ...where in the OT it says that, and I'll consider that the OT and NT actually
    belong in the same covers!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s adet1  - how about this
    "It may be that God will ordain love between you and those whom you hold as
    enemies. For God has power over all things; and God is Oft-forgiving, Most
    Merciful."

    Qur'an 60.7
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s adet1  - or this
    The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one
    which is better, then lo!, he between whom and you there was enmity shall become
    as though he were a bosom friend.

    But none is granted it save those who are steadfast, and none is granted it save
    a person of great good fortune.

    Qur'an 41.34-35
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - quran
    "Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees
    will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill
    him'"



    Yup. Beautiful verse, that.



    C'mon. Let's not even try to say that religion teaches peace, whatever religion
    it is. They all call for blood, and too many people are duped into answering
    that call.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Christians love their enemy, we love you!
    "You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor (AQ) (AR) and hate
    your

    enemy. 44 But I tell you, love your enemies [r] and pray for those who [s]

    persecute you, (AS) 45 so that you may be [t] sons of your Father in heaven.
    For

    He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the

    righteous and the unrighteous. (AT) 46 For if you love those who love you, what

    reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you

    greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? (AU) [u]
    Don't

    even the Gentiles [v] do the same? 48 Be perfect, (AV) therefore, as your

    heavenly Father is perfect.



    This is polar opposite of Muslims. I really think you should leave this site

    and enter a Muslim one. You know what Chrisitians believe? We believe that we

    should love even muslims and show them the love that is shown to us by Jesus

    Christ, and the G...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Religious wars...
    Let's just do the math here...um, isn't the end game of christianity a giant
    war? Just like islam? And judaism? And zoroastrianism?

    Religious war is the province of the religious. Don't shy away, admit that the
    entirity of the bible comes down to a giant celestial war, where the losers get
    tortured for eternity and the winners...well in christianity it seems that the
    winners get to live in Isreal with god and jesus staring at them from both sides
    of the city. Hey, at least muslims get virgins (though there is a way to
    translate that which results in martyrs getting 72 white raisins)!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Anonymous  - Albert Einstein-The World As I see It
    "The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the
    fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science.
    Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good
    as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery -- even if
    mixed with fear -- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of
    something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the
    most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to
    our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true
    religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am a deeply religious man...
    I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with a knowledge, a
    sense, of the marvelous structure of existence -- as well as the humble attempt
    to understand even a tiny portion of the Reason that manifests itself in
    nature."...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Persecution
    So what is the deal atheists? Why are you guys so hell bent on debunking
    Christians, Christ followers? If you believe there is nothing after death so be
    it. Leave us wacky Christians to go to Heaven. Are there really Christians who
    are persecuting atheists? Christians are not Catholics! Christians were NOT
    involved in the inquisitions! In fact Catholics persecuted Bible believing
    Christians! So maybe you guys are offended that we would dare to say that there
    is salvation despite an immoral sinful life, and that salvation leads to heaven?
    Well if there is heaven, and there is, I am going to try my best do get there.
    If not, and we Christians were wrong, at least we led the best life we could
    because we had a healthy fear of disappointing our daddy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Because...
    ...you are indeed Catholics! What do you think the roots of Protestantism are?
    What were they 'Protesting?' There was a huge war fought over it, and it just
    kinda came to an uneasy end in Belfast a few years back...



    As for persecution, look up 'blood atonement.' This is actually done. Today.
    I'll stop fighting when people of ALL religions stop killing people. I don't
    care what the brand name is.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - quick google search on protestantism
    If you would do a quick google search on protestantism you would get this.
    "Protestantism is according to some, one of the four major divisions within
    Christianity, together with the Roman Catholic Church, Anglican Church, and the
    Eastern Orthodox traditions. The term 'Protestant' is most closely tied to those
    groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century's
    Protestant Reformation when in 1517 Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses
    on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the All Saints' Church
    in Wittenberg, Germany." I know it is just a Wikepedia definition but I am
    surprised you didnt google it yourself. Read Foxe's Book of Martyr's to look up
    Catholic persecution of Christians.



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s char  - Please Read
    antitheist1

    Google Fox's Book of Martyrs. It is available to read online. I don't know if
    it shows the pictures. But if you could find a hard copy read that because it
    has pictures!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Have read that.
    It was an excellent book, though rather biased. The point I was making though,
    is that Protestantism only exists because it was first Catholicism. The roots
    are the same. You are Catholic, each and every one of you.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Church at Pentacost
    True Christians go to the church that was created at Pentacost in Acts 2. The
    church created at Pentacost has NOT apostasized! There are just apostate
    churches!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Isn't this like saying everyone on the USA or Austrailia are Brittish? What
    about the south Africans anf India? Hong Kong anyone? Rather uninformed don't
    you think?

    The reformation did come OUT of Catholicism. The defining issue is one of
    freedome. The revolt(revolution) from this system set the revolters free from
    the Catholic system just as the States, Aussie's, S. African's and Indian's are
    free. No longer a part of the originating system.

    You know kinda like the missing link? There isn't one? You know, good!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Creepily enough...
    ...you should youtube Queen Elizabeth's coronation. You'd be pretty surprized
    just exactly what she's sworn to be queen of.



    But back to your argument; you may be separate from your parents, but you cannot
    separate yourself from the fact that you came from them. The genetics you carry
    come exclusively from them, though there are a few mutations from time to time
    (mormons, anyone?).

    You read a bible edited by catholics, say prayers in thier approved manner, and
    teach using thier methods. What about history so offends you? Again, just
    because we don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Barley  - The roots of Protestanism
    The roots of Protestanism is scripture. People like Martin Luther read and
    understood the message of scripture, and basically had to leave Catholicism
    behind in order to practice living scripture. The Protestants spoke in favor of
    scripture, although the norm was to suppress scripture. To be "pro"
    something is to be "for" something. They spoke in favor of the
    scriptures. "Con" means against, hence the word "contestants",
    they are against each other. Luther was in favor of learning and teaching
    scripture. The Roman Catholics wanted to suppress it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Martin Luther...
    ...was also an outspoken antisemite. Even I cannot bring myself to quote what
    he had to say, in all his righteousness and heroics, about Semites. I have
    nothing good to say about that particular racist.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Barley  - Martin Luther and anti semitism
    I am aware of Martin Luther's advocating the teaching of scripture to common
    folk. He discovered that salvation is by grace, not by the works of man, it is
    the gift of God. If he ever did make such comments, that only makes it clear
    that he was not perfect. I commend Martin Luther for his teaching of what
    scripture says as opposed to the commandments and doctrines of men. He like any
    one worth his salt kept learning and correcting himself as he learned more and
    more of what scripture taught. Everyone can learn from him in that regard.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Martin Luther's virtue...
    ...was nothing really other than his political acuity and legal expertise. He
    had a midlife crisis, decided that he hadn't done anything worth while in his
    life, and decided to see if he couldn't win a fight with the church of the day.
    Too bad the whole world paid for that fight for more than 400 years. And had he
    actually READ those scriptures that he so proudly advocated in thier original
    Aramaic, he would have realized that the word jesus used for 'neighbor' is a
    word specific to Jewish neighbors only. But, like jesus, Luther compared Jews
    to vipers.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s JP  - logic
    If we came from monkey's, why are there still monkeys? Seems like there should
    be A) no more monkey's or B) a half human/half monkey species that is in the
    process of evolving. Did something happen to stop the monkey's from evolving
    into humans?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s andy1968  - JP
    We didn't come from monkeys we have a common ancestor with chimps. They evolved
    in one direction humans in another. Monkeys never evolved into Humans. Chimps
    did do and still are doing very well on their own. There is no half human half
    monkey species but there are fossils of human evolution over the past 6 million
    years like heidlbergensis, homo erectus and neandertals. There are virtually no
    fossils for the evolution of the chimp from the common ancestor.



    Andy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Which is evidence that...
    some guy named Paul wrote a story. So did L Ron Hubbard.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Charity
    awesome job!!! that task really took guts!!!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - what?
    You are so deluded! Evil has no place in divine provedence. You are a very
    troubled man! But please keep posting. PLEASE! You are the funniest of the
    posers (sp deliberate) here by far.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Confused too
    I am also confused by the placement of this post. I replied to another posters
    comment and it was applied to the top of the tread. I don't even recall which
    comment it was I responded to. It is very out of place here.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - still no answer!
    You say Hitler's evil was caused by belief in evolution gone awry, but then you
    state that his belief in his divine provenence can't be evil! He believed in
    two things here, and you've only claimed that the thing YOU believe in is
    harmless by default. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to chase you down for a real
    answer on this one! Let the games begin!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Games
    You have much of it right. Hitler's self apointed authority is what cause all
    the rucous but it was most certainly not Devine. Hitler was a man and had no
    divinity in him. If he did he would not have done the things that he did. The
    answer you seek is that there is NO evil in God. No darkness at all. Hitler
    beleived in HIS (self appointed) devine providence. As a result, you claim God
    to be evil rather than Hiter himself. Pull yourself together.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Games
    And who, according to you, created Hitler? The great question here is; how
    could something with no evil create it, and bear no responsibility for it?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    The same person that created You! It was your choice to become evil not God's.
    This action is a testimony against you just as Hitler's life is his testimony
    against himself. God does not bear the responsibility of man's choice and so
    that you know the God of the Creation has given Full disclosure of how to come
    clean. He paid the fine Himself for those humans that accept it. You are
    confusing Justice with evil.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - What will you choose? God's way or your way.
    God created all things. He gave Adam and Eve the choice to obey Him or disobey
    Him. They chose disobedience,and as a result we live in a fallen world where sin
    rules the lives of many people. Adolf Hitler was a tragic example of this. All
    people still have the God given right to choose thier way or His Way.

    The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Only Way to be saved from sin and it's
    consequences. God does not ignore sin, he deals with it. We can deny that sin is
    an issue, but that does not change the fact that it is, and that we are still
    accountable for it. Today the question is, will you accept Jesus as your Lord
    and Saviour? 1Pet.2:24 Who His Own Self bare our sins in His Body on the tree,
    that we being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: BY WHOSE STRIPES YE
    WERE HEALED. He took responsibility for our sins at the CROSS! Now will you
    accept His Provision or reject it?












    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - You will never see it again.
    Hebrews 6:4-6



    I am truely sorry for you Anti-theist. Since you say you have extensively
    studied the Bible you know what it says about you.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - Unbelief /Faith
    A sincere question.

    How do you reconcile Heb.6:4-6 to Rom.11:18-23?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Hmmm
    are speaking from personal experience? Have you brain damage? I know, I know.
    You are just fine. No brain admage. Just having some fun at your expense.
    After all you have to have some purpose for your existance. Let's just make it
    for my own person enjoyment. Thank you. I appriciate you.

    Does temporal lobe damage cause people to be raised from the dead? Just
    curious.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No...
    ...but it may cause people to believe it!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Enfemus  - Truth is in the Evidence
    Since Science can't find evidence of macro evolution they say it is Micro
    Evolution over time? How can you even say that when Micro Evolution is evolution
    at all just variations within the kind (i.e. Tall, short, Light hair, dark hair
    etc..)Tell me at what Millions of years is any new codes added to the Genes? If
    a princess kisses a frog and it becomes a prince we call it a fairy tale. If a
    princess kisses a frog and it becomes a prince over time you call it evolution.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Family tree...
    Macro evolution is a misnomer, and does not occur. What happens is that the
    family tree has branches. Some go one way, others go another way. My wife
    lives on a different continent than her family, and has married me, a guy from
    this continent. Our children already look substantially different than her
    brother's children, after one generation! How much different would they look
    after 50? A thousand? Evolution does not produce Fronkeys or Hipposauruses or
    Ratzingers. Evolution alters traits over long periods of time. Different
    branches grow diferent directions. It doesn't happen in one go.



    YOU are the missing link between your parent and your children. There's no
    'halfway' species, just slight changes and billions of years.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s John Williamson  - Antitheist1
    I could possibly go down the evolution train with you, but I see you rode it
    frequently enough to agree "evolution does not produce Fronkeys or ..."
    as you go on to say "Evolution alters traits over long periods of time.
    Different branches grow diferent directions. It doesn't happen in one go.",
    while I agree you can never get Frogs from monkeys, and humans from apes; at
    least, you seem to agree there. We could probably go on and on even possibly
    intellect ourselves into a corner within a circle; I'd rather spare us though.
    Hey, what happens when you DIE? Where do you go? Do you just close your and that
    is it there you go end of story? Makes life seem awfully trivial if all I do
    come into this world opening my eyes and leaving it closing my eyes. I mean I
    get birthed, raised up by parents- who really knows if my mom and dad are both
    there or not, maybe just one or none~could be orphaned at birth by death, I
    ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Just because...
    ...it's not nice doesn't mean it's not true. We die. That's it. As far as any
    evidence I've seen (and I am open to EVIDENCE, which doesn't mean ANECDOTES,
    that shows life after death) there is nothing after we die except a reabsorption
    and recycling of our component matters and energies. We've truly got only one
    shot at this thing, and you want to spend it paying churches and believing
    things without any proof? I can't stop you at all! I can, however, fight
    against those religions that are going out of thier ways to force me to obey
    them during the time I'm here. I like sex, I don't want to kill people for
    thier beliefs, and I don't think it's anyone else's business how many people are
    in my family.

    Your questions are not evidence. Only wishful thinking.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mike  - We've truly got only one shot at this thing,
    Why do you even bother if after it is over there is nothing? Why take your best
    shot? What are you even living for? So in other words you have no purpose? If
    evolutionist feel this way, why do they get up in the morning. Why are you
    concerned about political correctness? What does it matter if you hurt someones
    feelings? Why would I want to hire someone who has no conscience. You have know
    conscience right? Why should you?

    I'm just curious.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Because...
    ...I only have one shot at this. I'm doing my best to get it right. Why would
    I want to hire someone who's every mistake is divinely forgiven? Who's morals
    come from one of the most violent books ever written? Who may sell out everyone
    around him at any time in a misguided fit of religious zealousy (abandon all ye
    have, and follow me!)?



    If god won't forgive me for raising my kids wrong, then the onus is on me to
    actually raise them right.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s andy1968  - family tree
    Antitheist1, the Ratzinger does exist he is the head of the Catholic Church.



    Andy.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Whoa...
    ...now THAT'S scary!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Buddy B,
    amen
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Jay  - Theories
    Yes, but I can hold something up and let go of it and it drops. We call it
    gravity. I see no transitional forms. I didn't come from an ape. You can say
    that you did, but I didn't. Also, I can pray to God, the only God, and he
    answers me. That's how I know of HIS existence. I seek. I find. I knock.
    The door is opened. Praise God. I hope you'll give it some more thought.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - So...
    basicly, what you're telling me is that if something takes longer than 2 seconds
    to comprehend, it doesn't exist, and is therefore only to be explained by
    'faith.' And here's a QUICK thought for you; hearing voices, delusions, and
    strong religious experiences are all indicative of dominant temporal lobe
    damage.



    Things that make you go 'hmmmmmmm...'
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mort  - Transitional Fossil Museum
    Have any of you creationists ever picked up an evolutionary biology textbook? I
    believe there is plenty of transitional evidence and reports of rigorous
    scientific studies documenting transitional evidence. If there was really a
    Transitional Fossil Museum, you'd come up with some illogical, senseless way to
    refute the proof in front of your eyes. Guess what? The proof could already be
    in front of your eyes if you actually made an effort to look at the science.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Andre  - A Reformed Atheist
    I was a hardcore atheist who'd rather die than believe in a God, but a
    miraculous thing happened to me. Through my research into the Truth Movement
    spawned by 9/11, I was able to make sense of this world in relation to bible
    prophesies.

    Just that one little seed of belief in the possibility of Jesus' existence was
    enough for God to bless me with his Holy Spirit and radically change me from the
    inside out with no intervention or effort on my part. Let me tell you, there is
    nothing in this world more powerful and humbling than the love of God. When you
    feel God's spirit enter into your heart, it is an undeniable an life changing
    experience. You will be forever transformed and there is no turning back.

    Now with that said, I'd like to address those Christians who are trying to
    reason with atheists on an intellectual level. Basically, you are on their turf.
    Why are you trying to reason with them intellectually when G...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - interesting...
    ...I'm saddened that your debate got cut off there, please refinish the argument
    before I rebutt! I find your line of though intriguing...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - not really fella
    Actually, it is possile for a naturally occuring impregnation to occur without
    seminal fertilization. The egg is diploid before it is fertilized. So, should
    this event occur the female will give rise to another female. A close clone but
    not quite. The DNA's are shuffled a bit durring the meiotic divisions. Now,
    although it is possible it is so rare as to be outside know occurences. What you
    are refering to is maleness being imparted to the freakish outside occurences.
    But that is using only our tiny little understandings. God called forth a star
    that we call our sun and made humans and gave them breath. It is not so tough
    for this guy to simply speak into existence some flesh inside a virgin woman.
    This is what is outside your abilities.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - um...
    The sun is a ball of hydrogen fusing into helium. That nuclear reaction
    continuously fused atoms into higher and higher elements, which joined to form
    molecules, which combined through chemical reactions to form various substances.
    There's no mystery here, and we humans have indeed done it. You see, when
    electrons and protons love eachother very much...



    But good point on the diploid mutation! Mutation is one of the primary building
    blocks of natural selection! See? You ARE on my page after all! We'll have
    you talking reality in no time!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Anti
    Dipliod mutation? What are you talking about? Read it again please. As far as
    making a star you are completely delusional! We have only made Bombs.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Reread, and...
    Did I say WE? Did I? They are there, and WE don't have a clue where the
    original matter came from. Neither do you, admit it. You just 'believe.' And
    diploid gametes are indeed a type of mutation (mutation means anything that
    isn't normal!) which shows that things do indeed sometimes vary. You're too
    smart for that kind of argument, G-man!



    And I agree that we've only made bombs. Ever been to Hiroshima? Ever talked
    with the survivors? You know why that bomb was dropped? Japan wouldn't
    surrender the Emperor's god-head, and USA couldn't let them keep any god other
    than jeebus. Both A-bombs were blessed by a priest.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - back to di-ploidy...
    Maybe you should look up the word. You can type them well but understanding is
    elusive for you. The word means: double or two fold. Also Having two similar
    complements of chomosomes. From the greek diplous meaning double. Mutations
    happen in the DNA base pairs not the total number of chromosomes. This argument
    comes to the conclusion of haviong to add chromosomes in orsder to creat a
    "mutation" that would then make a new "Species". And you are
    right, I am too smart for this erroneous argument.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Which would mean...
    that people with Downs Syndrome are not human? And I understand diploid. You
    are the first syllable! PTHTHTHTB!!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    Good then you understand this is not mutation but cellular division gone awry.
    These humans you have made reference too are in fact people. THey do have an
    extra chromosome. But here is the question; can they mate to produce viable
    ofspring. This is actually a question I cannot answer. I really don't know
    anyone that would copulate with a down's kid. That is sick! Baybe you could use
    one of the other genetic deficiencies such as fragile X to support you claims.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Or...
    ...how about the experiment in which e.coli developed the ability to process
    food sources other than sucrose? I can hook you up with the specific study...or
    you could hear all about it in the APA formatted text of TGSOE...



    However, the whole viable offspring thing begs an interesting question that you
    brought up, namely; has anyone actuall tried to breed a wolf and a chihuahua?
    I'm thinking that that would be impossible, but I admit I could be wrong...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tiffany  - One Question...
    Since when is believing in evolution synonymous with being atheist??!! Evolution
    has NOTHING to do with the actual origin of life, merely how life has changed
    over time...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Kevin  - Reply to"One Question"
    Christians need to have a distinction between Macro evolution (ape to man) and
    micro evolution (adaptation). To believe in Macro evolution goes against the
    very foundation of Christianity. Man was created in his present form as stated
    in Genesis One. To believe otherwise is atheistic. Evolutionist would like you
    to believe that Macro and Micro evolution are the same. They are not.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Ape to man...
    Sigh. Again, we DID NOT COME FROM APES! Rather, we share an ancestor! Apes
    are every bit as evolved as we are, just in different ways! Don't believe me?
    Arm-wrestle one!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - where isit?
    Antitheo-thingamabobin-from-nowhere, You are right! we did not come from apes!
    You are also right in saying apes an man are fully formed just in different
    ways. But this ancestor? I will now use the most powerfull athiestic
    refutation. Drum roll please? Ready? Proove it! Show me the ancestor!
    Remember this, there are millions and millions of fossils of whole creatures but
    not even one of the ancestral (transitional) form. Arm wrestling will not prove
    evolution.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - K.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik



    Start here. Here's when we came out of the water.



    And here's the lynch-pin of your religion being total and complete moronicism
    that people are getting KILLED for: Drum roll PLEASE!!!



    GOD! GOOOOOOOOD!!! Where is he? Your turn to show me.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christina  - To Antitheist!
    You bring up some very valid arguments for the theory of evolution. However,
    there are many, many gaps and evolutionary mysteries that no true evolutionary
    scientists have been able to explain.



    Just some issues they can't answer for:



    Why can scientists still not produce life from nothing?



    Scientifically and naturally generated mutations have always led to a lower
    organism. So how did man derive from apes?



    How do you account for the gap between apes and man? The missing link is still
    missing!



    And just how do you answer the question of the stability of the species?



    The Answer:

    Some of us Christians believe in what is called "Progressive Evolution"
    which is the theory that God created everything in the beginning, and lets
    evolution take over from there, but continues to intervene, producing HIS
    desired results.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - So you are...
    ...Deist! This is the philophy you are advocating here; the idea that god
    started the ball rolling, and then left - no miracles, no thought-reading, just
    start things off in the universal oven and wait a few billion years until
    PRESTO! Finished product (which, in our arrogance, we humans assume must be
    us)!



    To answer your questions individually: 1. scientists do NOT claim to know
    everything! Otherwise, they would be out of work! 2. Man does NOT come from
    ape, but rather shares a common ancestor. 3. That ancestor, earliest we can
    find, is called 'Tectolic.' It is the missing link between fish and
    land-dwellers, and 4. Species are not stable. They evolve. Hence modern horses
    being two-meters high, and prehistoric horses being little bigger than small
    dogs. Good try, though! m(^-^)m
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ivan  - Athiest one sided
    It is bad enough that Atheism is a religion of Death. But to have adasity to
    call Bible a myth is pure blasphamy. Athests what about your mythology such as
    evolution with zero facts.
    Yes Newton and Pefogorian theories can be proven and demonstrated. Cant say the
    same for evolution.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Demonstration...
    Have you, by any chance, actually READ TGSOE? If you don't like reading so
    much, I'll gladly send the audio version to you in .mp3 format...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Zero proof?
    MY Audacity? Really? You sit there and proclaim atheism is a religion when it
    is, by definition, the ANTITHESIS of religion! You claim WE deal in death?
    Tell that to the victims of 9/11, or the Crusades, or Northern Ireland,
    or...well...even someone as foolish as you must get the point! So what, in your
    precious scriptures, is the punishment for my blasphemy?



    And you say I practise a religion of death? That is why I'm not an athiest, but
    an ANTItheist! Religion kills people, tortures them, inundates them with fear
    an guilt, and takes thier money to add insult to injury.



    And the word is 'Pythagoran.' If you are going to insult someone, at least take
    the time to spell correctly!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s m. astrid  - atheism
    i grew up in atheism. i was taught evolution & all that. It gave me no good
    reason to live,

    life was meaningless. I thought:"why do people work so hard when they're
    just gonna die anyway? It doesn't make sense." By 12 years old i already
    tried suicide, thinking why bother with life? I hate it.

    But now I know jesus & He is real allright & he is very loving to a sinner like
    me. & you can know the bible is true from all the fulfilled prophecy & how 40
    different authors over a timespan of some 1500 years wrote a harmonious whole
    that all comes to fruition in Jesus, He fulfilled tons of prophecies in his
    life. Also archeology proves the bible is true. But most of all if you pray to
    Jesus with a humble heart,He answers you, I know that from experience.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Daniel  - God is real-no matter what any atheist, agnostic,
    God is real, if you (the non believers), ask God to show himself, he will, and
    you will be sorry that you said "there is no god, show me this Jesus
    character" and other such foolish reasonings. Did you non believers know
    that Jesus can heal you of any sickness (Colds, Flus, etc)? Well did you? Your
    typical answers (atheists): "How can a God heal you if we have doctors"?
    Answer: God's word provides the healing, if you believe it in faith, you see
    foolish sinners out there that deny Christ, you can be forgiven of everything
    wrong you've ever done. Jesus is real, God is real, whatever negative things
    you think on sinners, that's what manifests in your life, so instead of saying
    "I'm feeling ill today, I'll never get well." You're agreeing with the
    devil that you'll never get well. Try saying this instead even if you're not a
    born again Christian yet, it will uplift your spirit a bit "By His stripes...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Debunking "jesus's healing" with EASE!
    So, why do christians die of cancer? How is it that, no matter how hard his
    parents prayed, a 6-year-old boy had to die a horrible but easily treatable
    death from leukemia while his father, a perfect marrow match, refused to let
    REAL medicine do it's thing because of that STUPID textbook? My wife, a nurse,
    who does REAL medicine, watched this boy suffocate over a period of months
    because of jesus's non-existant healing.



    So, Daniel, did you know that jesus doesn't heal leukemia? Did you know that
    bone-marrow transplants do? Your ignorance is why I work so hard to tell people
    to use thier HEADS intead of scripture! Believing what you just said kills
    people.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christina  - God's healing powers
    To Daniel and Antitheist1:



    I think both of you are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum, and you both
    have brought up some very valid points.



    First of all, i am a devout Christian, and i am also a nurse, so i can see both
    sides of the equation. The question is not if God "can" heal, but if he
    "wants" to heal, and how he wants to heal us! Nowhere in the bible does
    is say that medicine is evil. God made all of the substances used in medicines,
    and he also gives people the knowledge and talent to use that medicine.



    As Christians, we need to use ALL the resources that God gives us and stop being
    stupid about refusing the God-given talents of physicians.



    However, even modern medicine will fail if it's not in God's will to heal!



    I wish you both blessings and understanding,

    In Jesus' name.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Nikky
    In addition to Christina's comments................ we need to remember that for
    those of us in Christ, physical death is not final.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Nikky
    Which is why I've always noticed how delighted christians are when they get told
    they've got a terminal disease.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Sara  - Jesus cares
    Isaiah 57

    1 The righteous perish,

    and no one ponders it in his heart;

    devout men are taken away,

    and no one understands

    that the righteous are taken away

    to be spared from evil.



    2 Those who walk uprightly

    enter into peace;

    they find rest as they lie in death.



    You see a 6 year old boy who suffered for a short time on this eart, God saw a 6
    year old boy who was so right and innocent that He spared him from the evil of
    this world to bring him into everlasting and eternal peace with Himself. The
    rain falls on the righteous and unrighteous. Being Christian doesn't make us
    prone to the evil and rotting of this world. This world is perishing as you see.
    But God's Word remains True. God's Word being Jesus. Repent and trust in Him
    and have everlasting life to see the little boy again. That's what God wants
    for us all, Hi...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No, sadly...
    The fact is that the 6-year-old in question was too young to care. The
    6-year-old didn't enjoy dying at all. The 6-year-old thought and said far worse
    things that I am saying about religion here. According to your beliefs, the
    6-year-old is doomed to a further eternity of unspeakable torture. Good God.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Not really
    Actually believing the lie kills people. THe lie? The lie is, "I can be
    just like God.". It is the one Satan introduced to humans and we were easly
    trick into it. This is the lie that has Antitheist bound in Himself so tight he
    actually thinks he is making sense; placing himself on a throne he cannot handle
    and being the walking dead. Always seeking truth but never finding it. It is
    called rebellion and is sin.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Knowledge...
    Strange that being like god essentially boiled down to knowing about our
    nudity...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Another lie
    Anti theist this is an outright lie. It comes down to placing oneself above
    God. Though you are seared and will never come to understand this. I am very
    sorry for you.

    To everyone else this man is an example of a seared conscience. Be careful of
    what you read in his posts. is only goal is to drqag you to the place he is
    going.





    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - YES!
    I am, in fact, trying to drag people to the place where Lennon's great work
    'Imagine' can take place.



    BUT...READ YOUR BIBLE! READ IT! KJV Genesis, 3:7; And the eyes of them both
    were opened, and they knew that they were naked;8 and they sewed fig leaves
    together, and made themselves aprons.



    Go ahead, G-man, call me a liar again!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Try again
    Anti you are a LIAR. There see. Dare me again! Next for the argument. They
    were not tossed out of Eden because they 1) were naked, 2) because they
    dicovered it. They were simply imbarres to stand before God and each other
    after they sinned against God by wanting to become just like Him. Please use
    that awesome intellect. Read the section right before that and then right after
    that. You'll see the reason though you'll not be able to accept it as you have
    tasted and rejected truth. There is no justification now for you. sorry again.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Hmm...
    Well. There you have it. I guess that there is truly no hope for me. Perhaps
    I should accept that. Hey, maybe I'll use a name change...for now on, I'll go
    as....
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - TAAA DAAA!
    I think I'd better let everyone here know how righteous christians treat those
    who don't agree with them.



    You, Glen, just INTERPRETED what the scriptures said, instead of reading what
    was written!



    Your conversion record seems to be going swimmingly! I'm looking forward to my
    smiting!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Professor of History  - Lennon--Imagine that!
    Atheist 1--if you want to "drag us to that place where Lennon's 'great work'
    Imagine can take place--" I'd rather not. My sister was a nut on that freak
    and had ALL his looney writings. In Liverpool he used to take great glee in
    kicking "cripple sticks" out from under "geezers,"--then stomp
    and kick the daylights out of them. Some of his sophomoric and obscene writings
    are breathtaking in their mysogeny. And in ROCK AND ROLL BOOK OF THE DEAD, you
    can read what damned kleptos he and Yoko both were--"kleptos who paid,"
    as the commentators said. I would not want HIM looking over MY fence.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Hehe...
    My auntie went to school with the boys in Liverpool, and she would agree; said
    they were nice lads, except Lennon, who she said was a right jerk. That does
    not, however, make the song any less valid.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Cyndi Hawkins  - THanks
    Thank you Mr.Comfort and the Living Waters team for allowing me to participate.
    I have been trying for approx. 5 years to get my church to allow teams to go
    into community for evangelism with NO prevail. I continue to do my own thing,
    but it was great to finally experience the "body" functioning as it
    ought. WHAT A BLESSING IT WAS, THANK YOU!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s John Fleming  - GO!!
    Cyndi - do what you can to fulfill the Great Commission. Sounds to me like you
    may be in a congregation that isn't doing what God commands. A suggestion is to
    find a fellowship with Christians who are obedient to God and are willing to
    "go into all the world".



    With Love in Christ,



    John
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Buddy B,  - "OFFICIAL EVANGELISM"
    you'll find that most pastors and church leaders want nothing to do with
    evangelism outside of the church walls. but they still hang on to that
    ridiculous altar call.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Joe  - Did You Say You Want Evidence?
    To be fair to all. One must look at the possibilities. Much could be said here.
    However,there are really only 2: 1) Spontaneous Creation, that is everything was
    created by random chemical processes by chance over billions of
    yrs(http://www.iowastatedaily.com/articles/2005/09
    /02/opinion/20050902-archive.txt ). But more importantly where did matter and
    energy come from? Essentially, nothing created everything. The Big Bang theory
    you say. Think about it, it goes against physics, an explosion created order not
    possible OR 2)Supernatural Creation, that is God or some supernatural power
    created everything (matter and energy) from nothing and God is eteranl. A true
    scientist would look at both of these, ultimately desiring to seek the best
    possible explanation and not the opposite. In other words, not coming up with a
    conclusion then trying to prove it by manipulating and selecting evidence (there
    are still no transitional organ...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Same thing.
    We both have the same problem; everything seems to have come from nothing. I
    call it "I don't know, but I'm looking," you call it "god" and
    stop looking.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh yeah...
    The transitional organ thing...just what do you call an appendix?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Appendix
    I think an apendix is the section at the end of a book where you can find
    refernces to topical information. It is usually alphabetical and the page(s)
    where the info is discussed is given so you can make quick work of study. Oh,
    I'm sorry you meant the little immune system organ at the junction of the small
    and large intestine. My mistake. Apparently it also is useful in maintaining
    the bacerial flora needed for the large intestines. But science has only
    recently "discoved" this function while the organ has been doing it all
    along. Finally, what do you think this tissue is transitioning away from or
    into?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Amusing pun there...
    ...but why would you need science to show anything? We were made out of dirt
    and ribs and god breath! And placed on this world that was created twice in 6
    days, less than 6000 years ago. And god did such a good job he had to kill the
    whole darn place and start over.



    Funny, you love science if it agrees with you, but if it doesn't, well then it's
    just wrong, cause you obviously know that much more than the remaining 93% of
    the Ph.D.s...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Attacking
    Whao, baby whoa! Are you addressing the debate or attacking the speaker here?
    I enjoy science even when it does not agree with me. Some scientists beleive
    viruses meet the definition of life but I don't. I don't think they are wrong.
    We simply disagree.

    God did a perfect job at creation. It wasn't until Satan's lies produced
    arrogance in man's heart that brought the situation. And you bet God took care
    of it! God is quite capable of defending HImself. He is also quite capable of
    defending me.

    As far as excersising you, please I am not going to ask Jesus to do that which
    He has said He will not. There is no atonement for you. You'll just be
    re-demonized. Calling it out and cutting it out are two seperate things.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Back to the debate...
    Who created satan? And if it was your god, did said god know the results of
    that creation? And if so, did said god create said satan anyways?



    If I built a robot with gun-arms and sent it out into the street with a program
    to kill, but told it not to without altering the program, what would I be found
    guilty of?



    ...and hey, I ain't angry at all! What's a little damning between friends?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s all4Hisglory  - successful distribution
    Ray and Kirk,
    I had just heard about your ministry about a month ago and told my boyfriend
    about it. Then on the 18th he calls me and says that he got an Origen of Species
    book for free at his school, UWF. He said that the majority of students were
    really excited to receive a copy and that many of them were reading it. Praise
    the Lord! I was praying that the Lord would bless. My boyfriend got a copy
    himself and was looking forward to reading it.
    Thanks so much for letting the Lord use your talents for His glory.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s genesis  - Thank you
    honestly I love this website and the resources it gives to christian who want to
    share their faith. this is great for us to examine ourselves, our motives,
    change our lives, to help other people and so much.

    Thank you Kirk and ray and everyone for everything! I thank God for you guys who
    have blessed me and many people in my life.

    Jesus rocks!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Bob Cratchet  - Other Theories
    Why are you creationist/religonists not upset with the teaching of Newton's
    theory of gravity,it is after all just a "theory" and as such there is
    no "proof",how about Pythagoras' theorem's on triangles.The reality is
    that you have nothing to offer but outdated mythology,and ingnorance.Remember
    when your mythology ruled the world, from the end of the Roman Empire to around
    1400CE,history refers that that period as the dark ages,and it not because there
    was no electric lights either,then when people started questioning your
    mythology death by torture was the standard response,and you are trying get
    people to go back to that?look how well it works in the muslum world.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Joe  - Great Job!
    Way to go Ray and Company. What an awesome way to reach the lost and deceived.
    If one sinner repents it will be worth it...

    I search in vain to find transitional life forms. Whenever I go to the
    mall,work,fishing, etc....All I see are people. Not a mix of man and ape or man
    and banana LOL. Around my house there are cats, dogs, birds etc.....but nothing
    part this and part that. If evolution were true there would be thousands if not
    millions of frankenstein like creatures running around and the fossil record
    would be overflowing with the same. There is no science involved in the 'Theory'
    of evolution. That word is too strong for me. It's less than a theory. It's a
    huge lie foisted on the masses by willfully ignorant and blind pseudo-scientists
    who want to try (in vain) to kill God (Nietzsche)so they can live their life any
    way they please.

    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mike D  - Interesting Statement
    "In a couple of weeks we will have, in the best case scenario, 171,000
    people
    convinced that creationism is nonsense and evolution is COOL."

    When the day comes that we face Jesus Christ for our lives I'd love to see
    someone tell this statement to Jesus Himself. That day will come and will come
    sooner than most expect.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mathias E  - Answer to "Interesting Statement"
    Well, until that day I'll go with the theory of evolution.
    By the way, you guys not believing in the spaghetti monster, just wait until you
    face his presence on this earth!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Cheryl  - Book Distribution
    I saw the book being passed out at Auburn University where I attend classes.
    The man did not present me with one, as I was walking to the Library. I later
    that day found one abandoned on a table and picked it up. My curiosity prevailed
    and I put it in my bookbag to explore later. I am a Christian and feel that
    many on campus need to read about Christ and salvation. I even saw one young
    man toss the book in the trashcan shortly after it was handed to him. I am
    praying for him and others that need the Light. This secular world needs more
    influence from Christians. Keep up the good work fellow believers!!!

    Love in Christ, Cheryl
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Prayer for Athiests...
    Trust me, as an athiest, I can say that we do not want, need, or appreciate
    prayers on our behalf. Would you appreciate it if a Buddhist, Scientologist,
    Satanist, or Hindu offered prayers to thier 'gods' for you? Please do us the
    favour of leaving us OUT of you religion entirely!



    Love, no christ.



    Antitheist1
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Prayer
    How would I feel? Sad. Mostly because they have wooden/metal man made
    figurines that have zero power. Satan on the other hand is real. And there are
    people that regularly entice him to derail believers. But I am not fearful of
    them either. Jesus is greater than them and He has chosen me. Whom shall I
    fear? With God in me they fear me. I appriciate your rejection of prayer to
    God on your behalf. It is a demonstration that you know He is and that He can
    and will do something. If you were really athiestic you simply would not care.
    The best way to get me to do somwething is to tell me not to do it. Holy Spirit
    I ask that you convict this person of sin and I ask the Father to draw you to
    Jesus. In Jesus' name. Amen!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s JImmie  - Reply
    So I know that you say you dont appreciate our prayers on your behalf. But you
    sign with 'Love'. IF you don't believe, but you love me, why would it bother
    you if i prayed for you? Why are all you Athiests afraid of CHristians praying
    for you? Afraid the Holy Spirit my prick your heart and you might start having
    questions? Or is there something physical that happens? Like every time a
    Christian prays for me to go to Heaven and have eternal life, i lose a 10 dollar
    bill? LOL Of course i am just kidding, but If you want to demonstrate love then
    why not allow the prayers of the faithful? You act like we are dragging you
    into a barn and hitting you with holy water, when all we are doing is bowing our
    heads and asking God to help you. But i guess if your faith in your religion of
    antireligon is so strong we might be breaking one of your evolutionary laws in
    praying that you become a new creature in Christ.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Finally!
    I must concede that your prayers do not hurt me. I would just rather that you
    gave me the ten bucks, or the food, or the protection, or the medicine, or the
    education that you waste time praying for. I've not often heard of people
    praying for anything they couldn't make happen themselves.



    I guess that what I'm saying here is that tangible help actually helps. Prayers
    just waste your time when you could be doing something.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ivan  - Mark - I pity your ignorance
    Mark Hutchins commented that the Bible is "...a fairytale...written by a few
    men" This simple-minded statement demonstrates the ignorance of most
    atheists regarding scripture. The Bible contains 66 books, written by over 40
    different authors (including at least one woman - Esther), over a time span of
    approximately 5000 years! There are more surviving original manuscripts of the
    Bible than any other book of its age in world history. The fascinating beauty
    of the Bible is that all 66 books are in perfect harmony with one another! The
    Bible has been proven time and time again to be historically and prophetically
    accurate. It has shaped world governments and cultures throughout history. I
    could go on and on, but before you so quickly dismiss the Bible as a
    "fairytale", I suggest you actually take time to study it carefully for
    yourself, before you make such glib comments. Oh - in answer to your question -
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Jonathan  - Esther?
    I don't think Esther wrote the book of Esther. It was written by her uncle
    Mordecai, at least Esther 9:20 mentions that, "Mordecai recorded these
    events."

    ~Jonathan
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - And...
    The time-span was about 900. Including the 80 years between christ and the
    first second-hand account of his life.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s d_ruiz27  - Try only 40 years.
    ...the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that
    the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the
    middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In
    terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of
    the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Fact and Fiction
    OK. If the books are in perfect harmony, then you have a 'god' given DUTY to
    stone adulterers. And kill witches. And commit Genocide when invading cities
    that aren't Jewish. And throw out every plate a fly touches. And never touch
    Mt. Sinai.



    Have you not READ the book you are extolling? Try the following test to see the
    moral compass you are following; Go through the book of Joshua, and substitute
    the name "Joshua" for "Mohammed." Change "god" to
    "allah," and "Jericho" to "Istanbul." Read the
    fairytale to a religious friend and ask if 'Mohammed' acted righteously. I dare
    you! Try it!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Antitheiest---Against God---rebellion---Sin
    Okay Mr sinner. 1) stone adulterers; 2)Kill witches; 3)Genocide; 4) dishes; 5)
    touch Mt. Sinai; the answer is NO to each one. If you had understood what you
    have apparently read you also would know that. Jesus releases us from the debt
    these laws incurr. Since He came I am now under grace not the law. That does
    not mean I negate the law. So you say I must follow some "moral"
    compass. Do you not know that no one can follow God's perfection except God?
    No matter how hrd either you or I try never, ever shall we pass that test! Only
    Jesus of Nazareth passes this test. By accepting His way (faith) we are given
    the gift of righteousness. Romans 5: Grace through faith righteousness is a
    gift. And now I dare you to try.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Tried!
    I spent many years as a believer! You claim that the Jesus dude negated the old
    stuff, right? But he's, like, the same guy as the old dude, right? So, like,
    um...did he ever apologize to all those kids he ordered to be executed, stoned,
    and burned alive (read the Torah)? Did he ever mention how he was wrong in
    killing ALL THE FIRSTBORN KIDS IN AN ENTIRE COUNTRY? I kinda think there
    shoulda been a bit of an "I have SINNED!" moment there somewhere...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - I am truely sorry
    Anti-thieist, I am truely sorry for you. There is no more sin covering for
    you. You have rejected the gift of righteousness and now you cannot regain what
    has benn given to you as you would be crucifying Jesus all over again for
    yourself and holding Him up to contempt. You have sealed you own fate. There
    is no hope for you. You have testified to the fact that your conscience is
    seared!

    Listen to this people. This man (anti-theist)has come to kill, steal and
    destroy! THere is no good in him.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Kill, steal, and destroy, huh?
    So why have I not threatened YOU with damnation, told people to not read your
    comments, or accused you of killing, stealing, and destroying? Why have I not
    thrown pity and accusations your way? Why have I been prepared to back up every
    single statement I've made with TANGIBLE EVIDENCE! You give me anecdotes,
    mockery, and scorn. Truly, this is why I fight.



    Note I don't use my name, and this is for my protection! Face-to-face, the
    religious person often turns violent and vengeful. How long could you sit in a
    room with me before you took a swing?



    I've never heard of anyone killing in the name of Atheism (but could be wrong,
    something you are incapable of admitting).
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - again falsehood flung around
    I have not accused you nor have I condenmned you You have done that on your own
    I simply pointed it out. Fling your mud another direction. As far as hitting
    is concerned...I don't think I would stay in a room here I knew you were. There
    is no point is tossing pearls before swine as they will simply trample them
    underfoot. I will seek fertile soil. Rocks give no life to the seed. As for
    your name, who cares? Fear is the result of knoledge of punishment. As you
    have pointed out in your post you fear me actually becoming physically violent
    with you. Not gonna happen. Should you reveal your identity and I dicover that
    you work right beside me I'll simply fell sorry for just as I do now. My
    actions Good or Bad will do nothing for you at this time. You are sealed.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Tangible evidence
    Mine are backed as weel but you refuse to acknowledge them. there is no point
    in refering you to facts that you will simply dismiss. Therefore all I do with
    you is ring-around-the-rosies. You are not the only one. I do know that you
    are seared. You have testified to that. As a result there is no convincing
    you. Even if I did completely convince you, you would not be able to respond.
    Why? Because you cannot be brought back to repentance. Is the 6 year old child
    yours?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Nice, guess, but...
    ...no. The story is true, though, and my wife was indeed the nurse. The
    parents involved were not found guilty of anything, nor even tried.



    But don't worry, I have my own personal searings as well.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Professor of History  - Antitheist-Kill, Steal, etc.
    As to people killing in the name of Atheism: The Great Leap Forward, Tienamen,
    Stalin, Lenin, Ceaucescu, Pol Pot, etc. As to taking a swing, I refer you to an
    old Chinese adage: He who strikes the first blow admits he has lost the
    argument. I will admit that I cannot change your mind by my arguments, as logic
    works in many ways like Calculus or Logarythms, or the way an enormous trainyard
    might. There are too many paths your thoughts may travel for me to limit them by
    the "right" argument--you may flip a switch or change a variable--and
    you are far and away from the view I want you to see. That is part of why the
    hottest theme in Evolutionary Theory is the idea of Infinite Parallel
    Universes--To try to account for the long odds, mathematically.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ACK!
    I have to admit that I threw my rebuttal here at Glen, who was undeserving of
    it! I'll re-do it here:

    You seem to confuse 'Communism' with 'Atheism' in the above post (though I will
    have to look up Ceaucescu to be sure).

    Infinite parallel universes is more a matter of trying to account for
    Bose-Einstein condensates. See, they kind of give a real-world example of a
    quantum state, which means that quantum theory passed a real-world test. So
    far, the math is holding up!

    Oh, and to give you an interesting idea of what we DON'T know is out there;
    mantis shrimp can apparently see clearly in a spectrum that we can't even
    detect. Best eyes on the planet, brain the size of a pinhead. That's enough to
    make me think god must be unfair at the core!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Professor of History  - Glen-I am truely sorry
    I think in this case, you may be a little harsh with Antitheist1--It appears
    that he 1)has gone to church, or been brought up in one, 2)had something severe
    happen that has caused him to doubt/reject what he was taught. Notice the
    mention of the 6-year-old leukemiac who died(perhaps a Seventh-Day-Adventist's
    son?). I question the "believer" part, although I have known sincerely
    devout people who have been severely disappointed by the horror that has come
    their way. See JOB. As a result, he does not feel APATHY towards God, but
    HATRED. That is why he keeps muddying the waters with
    Islam/Muhammed/Buddha/Catholicism. My own life is not very happy, yet I STILL
    GET BACK UP EACH TIME I GET KNOCKED DOWN. This is only the Power that is in
    Christ. He needs this, and will not see it until he needs to. Or not.

    And NO, Antitheist, I only wish you well.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - A better reply...
    ...than any I expected. Again, the story is real. And it was JWs. When the
    parents were away, the doctors tried to treat him illegally, but it's pretty
    much impossible to get a black-market bone marrow donor.

    That said, I have no hatred towards god, as I can see nothing to make me think
    there is one. And if there is, he's not nice.

    I get back up too. On my own.

    And my post in the other thread starts to try and help G-man understand why I
    know religion as pure evil.

    Thank you for an honest answer, Prof. We'll talk again, I'm sure.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s ROE  - Quick question for Antitheist
    Why are you so passionate and hateful towards something you claim you don't
    believe exists?

    Do you debate with people of other beliefs or do you major on contending with
    Christians? My guess is 95% of your time is with born again believers. Do you go
    on mormon sites or J.w.sites? I doubt it. But then again I doubt you are man
    enough to own up to the truth that you mainly hate Biblical Christianity above
    all else. Ye must be born again.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yes, I do!
    I make no bones at all publicly declaring myself an antitheist. I've debated
    the uselessness and destructiveness of religion with peoples on three continents
    so far. I call Mormons on 'blood atonement' and sacred underwear and religious
    rites that are identical to those practiced in satanism. I call JW's believers
    in murder for thier refusal to give children medicine. I've also dealt with
    Muslims, and Jews in the same manner. Why?



    Ask the Aztecs about it! Ask the Cree, Sioux, and especially the MicMac (if the
    christians hadn't killed all of them) why I should be passionate about the end
    of christianity, and all other religions.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Bob Cratchet
    the books of the bible constantly contridict each other,maybe you should study
    your bible
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - ?
    Wrong (spoken with a slightly singing voice sustaining the G). no point in
    saying more.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - No?
    So why does the bible list 15 apostles between the four gospels? God demands a
    guy be stoned to death for gathering sticks on the sabbath, then jeebus
    repremands people who point out that he was doing the same thing! And I'm still
    kind of wondering on the whole evil of slavery thing, you see; it's totally cool
    in the OT, and jeebus never had anything to say about it at all! I'm a
    Canadian, so when do I get to come and take an American?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    You are demonized and have no authority at all over me. Nor do you have any
    authority over anyone with the Holy Spirit abiding within them. Venom is all you
    spit and your goal is to kill, steal, and destroy. I know who are. You
    dishoror the Son and the Father. And you have rejected the Spirit of Truth they
    have sent. Thereby you too are rejected.

    God says let the one with out sin cast the first stone. Your master(s) are the
    root of sin.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - HAHAHA!!!
    That's too good! I've been EXORCIZED BY GLEN! HAHAHA!!! So here, let me set
    you at ease, there, G-man!



    DOMINUS! JESUS! YASHUA! IAOWEH!



    See? No burned fingers! Dude, I'm not a demon, just an atheist.



    And for the record, you have no faith either! 'Tis written; "If you had but
    a mustard seed of faith..." well, I for one am waiting with baited breath
    for Glen's High-jumping Himalayas!



    Hmmm...perhaps you should start with a pebble.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    You most certainly have not been excorcize! It is futile to even try with you.
    You will only be re-demonized. You are quite able to say the words attributed
    to God. Good! Even the devils know them and tremble at them! This is not
    evidence of anything. I know you. I see you. And I am not afraid of you.

    I have faith in Jesus of Nazareth because I know who He is. Your very existance
    is building it and you are not even able to comprhend that. The father of lies
    is at your heart and driving you and I am emboldend to speak of Christ crucified
    all the louder.

    The fire of God will not come on you until it's appointed time.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Re-demonized?
    Well, I must, in the mathematical sense of the burden of proof and the
    impossibilty of proving a negative, admit that it is indeed possible that I am
    possessed, despite there being no evidence for the existence of demons. So, as
    a mental excorsize (pun intended!) let's assume that I am some kind of demon,
    shall we? The first thing I'd ask is who created demons?



    But dude, I ain't a demon! The bible you so believe in pretty much guarentees
    that the stuff you said would have me quaking in my boots and begging to be sent
    into a bunch of pigs, or something. Your fire and brimstone sermons have no
    effect.

    "I do not fear death! I was dead for millions of years before I was
    born!" Mark Twain
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Christian  - What do you know?
    Please give some specific examples (the name, chapter, and verse of the book) of
    where "the books of the Bible constantly contradict each other".
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Pauline Hammond  - bible a fairytale!!???
    Dear Ivan,

    I agree, you are 100% correct!! everyone and i mean everyone who claims the
    Bible to be a fairytale, is either extemely ignorant or plainly delusional. But
    then we know, those who dont understand God's Word are lost and unable to
    understand it anyway. However, those who have tried to honestly discredit it by
    studying it cover to cover, have been converted. Yes, the Word is alive and has
    the power to change and convert the lost soul. There is no book on earth that is
    as powerful as the Holy Word of God!!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Gauntlet thrown down; Gauntlet picked up!
    So I don't understand the bible? HAHAHA! I hereby challenge you to a throwdown
    of scripture! Your task is to find a way to PROVE scripture is the truth (and
    "because it just IS!!!" doesn't count as proof), and I will be able to
    refute you at every turn and, as further proof of the uselessness of the bible,
    I will do so using ONLY the bible itself as refutation material!



    Who will take on this challenge?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Rob  - Challenge
    I challenge you to read the bible cover to cover....sorry don't read it, study
    it, but I warn you, it WILL change your life. It must be an NIV or NRSV version,
    not because these versions will do a better job of convincing you, but those are
    the two versions I read on a regular basis. I have three other versions. In
    exchange I will study ANY book you recommend to me.



    "Good Luck" Avoiding God:)



    Robert
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Already done.
    As shown below, I've read the bible from cover to cover, and more than once.
    And as a counter, I'll give you an easy one; read the Quran. While my hope is
    that you'll see how all religious texts are constructed the same way and perhaps
    ask why that is, even if you don't, you'll still have enough knowlage to talk to
    Muslims about your faith intelligently.



    Good luck, and may you continue on to the Bhagvad Gita, The Egyptian Book of the
    Dead, The Diamond Sutra, and the free online text of the Raelians! If nothing
    else, my time teaching martial arts has taught me that it pays to know your
    enemies (not that I call christians enemies, but rather theology).



    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Wow
    Such arrogance. So you know God's word do you? Forward and backwards? BTW to
    challenge you Jesus has always been. No beginning and no end. Outside of
    creation. The spirit of deception is in you and it has you as its slave. This
    spirit also knows the accounts recorded in the bible and more. That is why you
    are the way you are. Now if you understood the bible you would have become a
    follower of Christ; because you would have known full disclosure of God has been
    given. As it is you are not. So use the bible to refute me in calling you out
    as a nonbeliever.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - You're not getting the point here...
    First, I was raised in a strict messianic jewish cult, which taught the bible in
    a sense that was far stricter than what most people are ever exposed to. I've
    not 'read' the bible, but been so inundated with scripture that I couldn't think
    for myself at all. You do not know study. Period.

    Second, I need not refute disbelief, as I am actively proclaiming and even
    promoting it!

    Third, what you proclaim here is the substitution of 'god' for the phrase 'I
    don't know.' And my first Biblical refutation is that 'Jesus' has NOT always
    been. That name was adapted from the Greek. The real name is Yashua.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Good work!
    Anti good work! SO you do know Him! Jesus has always been. Just because His
    name is written and pronouced JESUS in the english language is irrelevant.
    Since you have been inudated with the LAW you then know that it is impossible to
    follow it. As a result of being under it you are condemned by, it not me!
    Jesus has come to set you free of the next step, namely judgement.

    I really don't know what you were taught. Maybe you should do what you have
    said you have never done. Read the bible for yourself not for some taskmaster.
    Any more excuses?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Yup.
    Yeah, that part where David was called a man after god's own heart was great!
    Wasn't he a murderer? And I'm not talking about Bathsheba's wife, but rather
    the couple hundred Philistines he killed to collect penis skins from. Kinda guy
    I really wanna be like.



    And I do love how you've gone out of your way to warn off other lesser
    christians from reading my words. Afraid, are we?



    Truth has power.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I am not afraid you. David was after God's heart but not because he killed
    people. That was his sin coming out. David sought after God's forgiveness for
    these actions. Really no point in defending these things. Just another attack
    will come. You are very evil.

    But you are right in saying Truth is powerful. Jesus is truth for all that
    hear.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - And it's my turn to laugh...
    I'm attacking? You EXCORSIZED me! I'm just an athiest who's worried about all
    those religious people killing eachother, and people who have no part in the
    fight! I want to see hungry people fed! I want to see wars end! I want to see
    people actually start working together instead of quibbling over pedantics
    (great word, BTW)!



    The philosophies presented in the bible are not all wrong, and there are many
    that I follow to this day. Regardless of the source, good info is good info.



    And for all this, I'm evil?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I did not excorcize you! I did not even try! It is fruitless. You will only
    be re-demonized. To excorcize you Is not to call you demonized but to cast it
    or them out of you.. i am too well versed and smart for that! You are evil
    because of you lack of God. You don't even recognize Him.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Professor of History  - Antitheist 1-You're not getting the point...
    Would that group have been the Children of God, otherwise known as the Family of
    Love, or Family International? The problem is focusing on the singular
    personality of the cult leader, with all his problems. If we follow the Berean
    concept, and compare what we find, one with another, in the Scriptures
    (sharpening iron on iron), we develop a more BALANCED picture. Have you seen
    those little Sudan boys, forced to wear chains with 20 pound blocks on
    them--until they learn the Koran? By rote. Same problem you had.



    Martial arts instructor, eh? Check out another instructor,
    www.calvarygs.org/calvary/raul_ries.html.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - By rote...
    It is not the balanced that I take issue with. While I do not believe the same
    things they do, one often finds that one can find common ground from uncommon
    origins. Where I take issue with religion is in it's POTENTIAL and indeed the
    likelihood that its' adherents will take the messages literally and begin
    killing people en masse. For example, the verse in the OT that states 'Thou
    shalt not suffer a witch to live.' There is even one interpretation that
    replaces 'witch' with 'evil.' This is a recipe for biblically sanctioned
    murder, and has been used as such often.

    The fact that the Quran is used in the same way shows that religion is the same
    the world over...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s richrol  - Why are you here?
    It's obvious that you do not believe the Bible and that you think Christians are
    idiots. So, why is it that you are posting on this site? Is there some reason
    that you just can't stand it that Christians believe the Bible and have faith in
    Jesus Christ and are sure of their future? Is there something in the back of
    your mind that is telling you that you need to cause trouble for those
    Christians? I wonder who would put that in your mind?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Esly  - Amen! :-)
    I'm not at all surprised at how our our Lord Jesus made the event give-away run
    so smoothly! Praise God! He is in-control of everything! He harmonizes
    everything for His good.



    I'm sure Heaven was rejoicing (as I was) while each of these were being handed
    out.. and people read them with interests & probably in shock as they realize
    that the schools they are attending are very one-sided.



    May the Holy Spirit work in each of their lives convicting them of their need to
    repent & turn to Him; trusting for their eternal salvation.



    This was a fabulous idea. This ministry is definitely being led by God in so
    many ways! I thank God for so the so many people involved to Glorify Him. This
    was awesome & took a lot of faith to work out so perfectly! :)
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - WOW!!!
    Comparing a scientist with Hitler is a brilliant idea, huh? While I'm aware of
    how Evolution may have been an influencing factor on Eugenics (which was being
    actively practiced in the STATES during the 30s and 40s), why, in the
    introduction so cunningly crafted by your uneducated hack-job was there no
    mention of how Hitler continuously mentioned the 'divine provenence' that had
    chosen him as leader of the Reich?



    Do you attack physiologists who teach that virgin-birth is impossible? Or
    astronomers who KNOW the Earth is not the flat center of the universe? Or
    musicians who play beautiful music that ISN'T a hymn?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Harry Bouvier  - I love Jesus
    Melanie, we should get together for some missionary work, if you catch my drift.

    -Harold
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Gary Murray
    Sorry Ray, we do not need to be prepared to rebuke ignorance. Yo and your scam
    will have only one outcome; you will force your follwers and doubters to
    actually explore the science and evidence and realize that EVOLUTION IS A FACT.
    I usually do not applaud ignorance, but I must make an allowance for you.

    Thank You,

    GM
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s DaveMcC
    When you offer that evolution is a 'fact' I presume you are referring to
    evolution within species (micro evolution) which does in fact occur. But the
    concept of evolution in regard to changes from one species to another (macro
    evolution) is not a fact but a theory. Where is the evidence for evolution from
    one species to another?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s George  - Awesome.
    Great Stuff!
    I attended a seminar at a college on solar power two years ago a very liberal
    college. I gave them my email for additional inforation then. Your book
    distribution has caused thier science department to send me nine separate emails
    with vauge information attempting to debunk your introduction.
    Awesome!


    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Arthur Espinoza  - The myth of evolution
    With so much new science out there from non Christian and Christina scientists
    alike I dont know why people pretend as if Darwins "theory" is fact.
    Like myself, I know when students start to search for the truth they will find
    it. Thank you Ray and Kirk for all you do and showing that there is always 2
    sides to every story.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mark Hutchins  - Myth of evolution? Really?
    I noticed your comment on here and felt like I should respond... So you think
    that a fairytale that was written by a few men has all the answers on
    everything? That the bible tells us how god did everything... I pity your
    ignorance... You think that this story is in fact just as plausible as the
    theory of evolution which was formulated by one man, and supported and tested
    with the scientific method? And is universally supported by mountains of
    evidence? You dont even realize the delibrate ignorance and self deception that
    you must engage in to fool yourself into believing such a silly thing... What
    can I say... Ignorance is bliss...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s craig  - Mountains of evidence????????
    Where? What? I study both sides. Where are the transitional forms? Is bacterial
    resistance your evidence, sorry not evidence at all. Still bacteria not changing
    into anything else. Human fossils, either they are human or apes remember this
    is all just interpretation of bones that most of the time could fit in a shoe
    box. What about the fixity of species, not one species is "evolving"
    today. If your talking about variation within species, I agree that happens,
    that has nothing to do with molecules to man evolution. what about all the
    living fossils, wolemi pine supposedly from the dinosaur era, coelecanth fish
    found, millions of years old. If your going to put your faith in something you
    should be able to provide some examples of why you believe it. Just because a
    few british accents and some expensive footage on public television proclaim the
    "truth" of evolution doesn't make it true.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Easy answer!!!
    If Evolution is not a fact, then you MUST, by default, be an exact clone of one
    or the other of your parents and, by your ultra-right-wing-frenzied-christian
    beliefs, an abomination, creatable only in a lab by evil scientists.



    So are you a combination of traits from both of your parents, or an abomination?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - LOL
    Anti you are really funny. The word you were looking for is not evolution but
    rather sexual reproduction. See when two people get together and knock boots
    they make babies not evolution. Hopefully, the ones that come outa you are not
    horse bunnies or some crazy sharp toothed razor bladed man eating monster with
    acid for blood. AAAAAAAAHH!!!



    man you're funny
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Riddle me this, Factman!
    ...Why do it be that suits of armour from more than 3 or so centuries are
    generally a foot shorter than would fit a grown-up now? And how is it that
    we've managed to breed dogs to the point that, though we can CLEARLY show the
    genes that link them to thier common ancestors (wolves) we have strains as
    different as chihuahuas and great danes? But of course, things don't evolve, do
    they?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Eh?
    No answer, Glen? You know enough about biology to KNOW I'm right on this! Just
    evade the proof when it hits.



    I'm still waiting for your god guy to prove you right over here!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Hmm
    Like saying human midgets are a different species. Right? The making issue is
    can they mate to produce vialbe offspring! The defining issue that seperates
    organisms as different species is, can they mate to produce vialbe offspring?
    So anti-intellectual, can they mate? I think you'll find this adaptation is
    only that and a chihuahua though tiny can still produce viable offspring with
    the other caninus sub-species. Be totally aware of the word "strains"
    anti. It is only a variaion on the comparmentalized group of individuals making
    up the group called a "species". Please restudy your genetics lessons.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Fair point!
    So, can a fox mate with a chihuahua? Just curious here...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    No they are of different genuses.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Arthur Espinoza  - Myth-Yes
    I am going to have to agree with your own words Mark. I agree, evolution is
    still a theory and nothing else. To think mutations and time cause new
    information is intellectual suicide. That is why scientists who support the
    theory are continuing to fabricate new stories to try and brainwash the masses.
    They do this because they are still on a specifc step in the scientific method.
    The try again part.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ivan  - Fairytale
    Yes I do belive that evolotion is a fairytale. The only fact evoscientist
    presents is a mantra. It is a fact.... It is a fact... instead of saying this
    for 150 years they could just show us the evidence and we decide if it is a fact
    or not. But oh I forgot they don't have any.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s the fowler  - look
    or perhaps you just dont see what you refuse to see? hmm?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Marc A
    Only two sides? Surely we should teach all the other creation stories as well.
    What about the Greek creation story, what about the Japanese creation story.
    After all we should show students all the options, right?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Professor of History  - Marc A
    Teach ALL Creation stories in school? I'm all for that. That would make the
    superiority of the WHOLE of Genesis that much more evident. If we gave all the
    students Bibles, most would not read them (I dunno, Mom says it's GOOD FOR YOU.
    --I'm not trying it-- I know, LET'S GET MIKEY!!)

    I put my money on Mikey.



    But getting the Truth back where it belongs--yeah, I'm all for that.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Carlos  - The beginning of the end... for creationism
    Ray,

    You put the Origin of Species in the hands of 171,000 students and think that
    your 50 page introduction will change their mind about evolution. I think you
    are wrong.

    In case they didn't already know about the subject, the first thing they will do
    is check your EVIDENCE. That is what college-prepared minds do. I am sure it
    will not take them a whole semester to debunk your poor arguments.

    In a couple of weeks we will have, in the best case scenario, 171,000 people
    convinced that creationism is nonsense and evolution is COOL.

    Thanks Ray,
    Carlos
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s craig
    Provide some examples of why you have put your faith in the dead religion of
    humanism and it's fairy tale creation story of evolution. WHAT EVIDENCE??? It's
    easy to generalize.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Carlos  - Even Ray is on its way to becomming a believer in
    Craig,

    Don
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Easy counter here, too!~
    This is WAY easy! And FUN!!! I love debunking the Creationists! First, there
    IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD!!! AT ALL!!! IF THIS IS NOT SO, MAY hE STRIKE ME DOWN
    HERE!!!



    What? Nothing? So, I toss the ball ever-so-playfully into your impotent
    creationist court. At least Evolutionists have fossils, DNA, dendrochronology,
    and a complete lack of fossil rabbits in the pre-cambrian.



    Creationists have a work of fiction (see; 'Council of Nycaea'), and a 'god' who
    apparently, is incapable of defending itself.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - LOL
    Athiest1, quite funny you are! Yes. I also state that you don't exist and if
    you do may you strike me down here! No? Hmmm, still breathing. Here I am! No
    over here! Still nothing? You got nothing? Now that I am done taunting you,
    back to God. God is very patient. Should He stike you down right now He will
    strike all people just like you down. And He is going to do just that. Debuke
    me if you will but Jesus of Nazareth will come at the apointed time and He ain't
    gonna be a whippin' boy this time. Paece has been made for those who respond to
    His call. Judgement is remaning for those who don't. As for evidence of God
    You sare the very evidence you seek but cannot see it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - So...Jesus is coming to kick my butt?
    See, this is where the debate always goes to; threats and guilt and invoking the
    almighty's divine punishment, as though you had the power to claim it. And then
    a quick mention of peace and patience. And here is your logical fallacy; your
    so-called god claims the power to strike me down at any time, and for any
    reason, especially disbelief. I never claimed any such power. I do, however,
    find it strange how very self-assured in thier own salvation the very people
    condemning non-believers seem to be...wierd, that...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s gbinpa  - Antithieist1
    My heart goes out to you sir. You mocking someone who you don't believe in is
    silly. If you don't believe then why so offensive about it? As far as prof of
    God? Show me prof of evolution. Not the so called prof in the books. I've read
    it and its a bunch of bologna. Show me where the first living thing came from.
    Don't say space either....lol If there isn't an almighty being who created
    life, then where did that first cell come from that made life? Where did the
    cell come from that science is saying created the universe? Bet you can't show
    me it. So therefore you can't prove evolution exists.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Sigh...
    ...no, a cell did not create the universe. First, READ those books you just
    lied about having read, and then come back to me with a real question.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s acceptedchosen  - I am glad you are here I pray you find the truth
    It is appointed to man to die once then judgement. It is not for a Christian to
    judge a non-believer. You are blind and do not know the truth. Just as I was
    3years ago. and I did not want anyone telling me the truth... I already knew
    what I believed... What if what you believe is dead wrong. I am sure you are an
    intelligent person...their are many people who as yourself are still ignorant to
    the truth. Still searching. So I say I am glad you are here looking for the
    meaning of life and truth. I pray that you will discover Christ Jesus' love. I
    disagree with your beliefs because I know the truth. I won't condem you for it.
    You condemn yourself by turning away from God almighty great gift of grace,
    Christ Jesus. You however a free to choose how you live your life free to choose
    because God will not force you he gave you free will. so the choice is
    yours...choose wisely, I pray you will find hope , peace and love and comfor...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    No antitheist. He is coming to prevent people like you from completely
    destroying His creation. Also in the same action He is coming to finalise the
    deafeat that He has already begun through the cross on Satan; the one that
    provokes us into this destruction. Sadly everyone that follows Satan's lead
    will be cast into the place made for Satan. Namely the lake of fire. Angels and
    people too. If you rebell against God and don't want to be with Him, He has
    created a place for you to be without any influence from Him. You're not gonna
    like it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - ...And before I forget...
    The cognomen is ANTItheist. I am quite thoroughly convinced that religion is
    not merely false, but the single most destructive thing man has ever come up
    with. Please don't make me list how; you know already.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Again more nonsense
    The single most destructive force is that man thinks he is God. Men just like
    you. Now as t for the rest of the malarky, you know like Jesus coming back to
    kick your butt. Yes! As for me condemning you...no, thst is God's job all i do
    it tell you about it. It'll be very bad for you and I am only warning you.
    Take your own path. It is your butt on the line pal. Now this list you are
    gonna make is nothing more than Humans Killing and Claiming it in God's name.
    Jesus told us that men would come to do just that. OOO big surprise.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Reverse condemnation...
    So, if god created evil people, and is omnipotent (meaning he knows what the
    result of his creation is), and is omnipotent (meaning he can fix it), how is he
    not to blame for EVERY evil act? ALL OF THEM! Ever been punched? God knew it
    was going to happen, could have stopped it, but instead chose to MAKE it happen!




    In any courtroom in the world, god's only defence for all that would have to be
    not existing. That's the only kind of god with an excuse.



    But all that aside, the threat is meaningless. There is no god.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mike  - So who died and made you sour on God?
    Like most who do not believe in God you sound a weee bit annoyed that God hasn't
    made your life perfect and happy all the time. So if he doesn't live up to your
    expectations you just ignore him. You sound like many atheist I know who deny
    God because they have been slighted by him. I guess the real problem is that we
    as the created often forget our role in the creator - creation relationship.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - You know, by definition...
    ...this god guy should kinda vastly exceed my 'expectations.' The god of the
    bible committed genocide. Several times. Case closed.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen
    I really love this argument! Anti is upset that God is capricious but demands
    that he is capricious! PLease try to make up your mind!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tabitha  - Glen such passion
    Would that u impart these words of life on God's chosen people instead of
    wasting time with a bitter man, confused and laughing at his chance to frustrate
    u. Tell your Christian neighbor to stop stealing tithe from God, lusting after
    a neighbor's spouse and coveting neighbor's things. Your passion is right but
    misdirected. God expects Christians 2 act like christians but does not expect
    it from anttheists Your fight is noble but unnecessary. Encourage others in
    the faith. Jesus only scolded those that were saying they were God like but
    were not! He does not claim any such thing. Jesus showed only love to tortured
    souls so must we. let your light shine 2 others and he will see ur light and be
    changed by it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s villagetree  - Man as God
    Wait just a minute here, Glen. Those who follow religions that tell them they
    are given 'dominion' over the earth are often those that have deified
    themselves. Wake up, man! And make up your mind while you're at it.

    WBWJK? HIlarious.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Chris  - We hold no other values
    "The single most destructive force is that man thinks he is God"
    As we don't believe in God, I see us more as 'the regulator of life on Earth'.
    Now that we have done that, I present to you: Genesis 9:3
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Helio
    The difference between a man who thinks he is God and religion is the sheer
    influence and power the later has. There is so much fighting between theists and
    so many people have died for their private beliefs. The pervasive antisemitism
    of the Holocaust (Christians & Jews) , the crusades (Christians & Muslims), the
    Rwanda genocide (Catholics killing Protestants), Nothern Ireland (Catholics &
    Protestants), the Jihad (Muslims & Non-Muslims). Sorry I don't have time to
    compile a full list.

    All I am saying is that Antitheist1 does have a point that religion has been an
    extremely destructive force and it is not alright to ignore the transgressions
    of the past and the tragedies that are still taking place.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s me
    attention Helio: I understand that religion is destructive, and that there have
    been many poor representations of Christ. But becoming a christian does not make
    humans perfect. We are still people who make poor decisions. Me? I am a
    Christian. Not because of what I do. Not because of what I say, or how many
    times a day that I pray or wether or not I go to church every Sunday. That is
    where Christianity gets confused with Pharisee acts. True Christianity is based
    on a personal relationship and faith in Christ. Therefore he will recieve the
    glory of all that is good in your life, and bless you and save a place for you
    in heaven. The "Good people go to heaven" theory is false. Check out the
    man that died next to Jesus on the cross!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Added namer guy
    Anti I need reading glasses and did not see the word properly sorry 'bout that.
    But, I have gotten it right in all the other posts I have made in your regard.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Accepted.
    Don't worry about it.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s John Williamson  - Antitheist1
    You make a statement, "At least Evolutionists have fossils, DNA,
    dendrochronology and a complete lack of fossil rabbits in the
    pre-cambrian."... my question I ask is where do the evolutionists come from,
    where do the fossils come from, where do the DNA come from, or the
    dendrochronology, and my thoughts come to an obvious conclusion evolutionists
    didn't just show up on the scence, fossils had to come from something living,
    DNA are markers which make it possible to identify the very thing which had
    lived, and dendrochronology was created by some man or woman, or combination of
    the two, which once again leads me to ask where did all these things come from?
    Nothing doesn't create everything.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Perfect!
    I'm asking the same questions! I just don't assume to know the answer.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Mike  - Of course you do.
    You think because you decide not to claim that their was a creator that you
    aren't assuming to know the answer.

    "First, there IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD!!! AT ALL!!! IF THIS IS NOT SO, MAY hE
    STRIKE ME DOWN
    HERE!!!"

    Well the mere fact that you have made a conscious decision not to believe in a
    creator
    "(important idea here, so pay attention!)" means that you have already
    arrived at your conclusion. "WHEE!!! "

    Usually if you let an intellectual talk long enough he will talk himself into
    circles.

    Further I am curious by most of your post I am lead to ask have you read the
    Bible or for that matter Darwin's Evolution or are you just arguing on what your
    Liberal professor told you.

    Yes I have read the Bible (the whole thing) and most of Darwin's theories.

    I must say that God's theories make more sense.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - I've addressed...
    ...the bible earlier. For the record, there is a very conspicuous difference
    between what I believe and what you say I believe; I would change my beliefs in
    a heartbeat if shown proof. I would reevaluate them in the face of new
    evidence. I am constantly testing them to see if they hold up to fact.



    You see, no religious person would do that. They are truly the ones who arrive
    at thier own conclusions, and in many cases will die and/or kill to refrain from
    reevaluating.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Party right
    You are partly right, many Christians have indeed died than re-evaluate thier
    relationship with Jesus. Many more will join those that have gone before.

    If there is a conspicuous difference in what you believe other than the info
    listed in all of your posts would you please clear up the defficiences? It
    seems to me your posts have been vividly clear about where you stand.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Damned by Glen1  - Sorry?
    Please be a little clearer on the conspicuous difference question. I'm pretty
    sure that I have been pretty clear here where it concerns stands; religion kills
    people, therefore I hold it to be harmful.



    Oh, and on the killing in the name of atheism thing, you had Stalin right, for
    some of it, the rest were more killing in the name of Communism. Slight
    difference there. And most of Stalin's killings were Communism based.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Arthur  - sorry try again
    If the theory of evolution is true then indeed we should see transitional
    fossils, unfortunatley we DONT. Except the ones where those who are so
    desparate to prove their theory recreate a whole creature from a tooth or a rib
    or a toe. Is that an evolutionsist idea of intelligent design? Its very ammusing
    though to constantly be bomarded by all the "artist renditions" some of
    them are very good artists just not accurate though. Too much imagination and
    too little fact.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Tabitha  - prayer
    The very reason He does not strike u is because we r interveening on your behalf
    and no we will not stop.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Ivan  - AWESOME!!!
    Ray, Kirk, and all who participated:



    Outstanding job! It warms my heart to hear of the tremendous success you had in
    executing this worthy project! Absolutely brilliant tactic, showing up a day
    early! Praise God for giving you the wisdom and direction to do this!!! I
    will continue to pray for you and your ministry. Perhaps one day I'll be in a
    position to join you?



    Sincerely,

    Ivan G.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s lking  - wonderful
    I learned of this wonderful distribution to colleges only after the fact but I
    am ordering some books to put them in the hands of friends with children. My
    daughter has been caught up in the atheism movement. While I pray for her and
    her boyfriend to be shown the truth, I am distributing these books to parents to
    help them be able to counter this in there own homes.



    Laura
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Chris  - Dear *censored*
    Atheism is not a movement, it is the lack of one. Anti-theism is a movement. I
    beg that you do not try to convert your daughter, as pushy religious parents are
    worse than putting a theist next to an anti-theist and telling them to discuss
    the origins of the universe.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Melanie  - Re: Wildly Successful Origins Giveaway
    Praise the Lord!! I am so glad the book distributing went well. I was thinking
    of and praying for all who participated, and will continue to pray that the Lord
    would use it to work in many people's hearts and draw them to Himself.

    I was just listening to one of your audio messages and have been so encouraged.
    Thank you so much for your awesome ministry! May the Lord richly bless you!

    In Christ,
    Melanie

    P.S. Wonderful strategy, going a day early!! I like that!! :-D
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Have you not been watching?
    This whole campaign has made a public laughing stock of creationists everywhere!
    ANYONE with a shred of sense knows that even IF (and none of your minds holds up
    to Darwins' genius, trust me!) the author was a bad person, which he wasn't, it
    doesn't make his theories any less valid!
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Jay  - genius
    Any man who believes his ancestors are apes is lacking in intelligence.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Intelligence...
    No one claims that Evolution proves man came from apes...except people lacking
    in basic LOGIC! Let's see if we can spell it out for you, like a two-year-old,
    kay, widdle-wee? You see, the fact that apes are around at the (important idea
    here, so pay attention!) SAME TIME as we are means that they have been evolving
    for the SAME TIME that we have...still with me? That means that APES didn't
    evolve from apes either, but from an (another important concept here, Twinky!)
    ANCESTOR of both species! WHEE!!! You didn't come from your sister, but from
    an ANCESTOR, right? Good luck trying to wrap your head around that one, Jay,
    huh?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Blue Knight 3477  - Dear Anti-intelligence, I mean Anti-theist
    Let us consider your thought about evolution. In order for anyone to believe
    that we just emerged from some cosmic accident is not intelligent at all. We
    can't have something from nothing. In order to have anything at all you must
    start with someone, God was, is and will be that Someone that was the architect
    and the creator of the universe. He gave us the Bible and our conscience to know
    what it is to have any kind of moral code. The conscience is there to let us
    know something isn't right and the Bible is there to tell us why it isn't right
    in the first place. Thus the ten commandments. We can argue day and night but it
    would be silly to do so. If you look at a house you know there is a builder of
    that house. An intelligence that was able to make that house. When you look at
    the balance of the universe we think of how amazing it is that things stay in
    balance. God created with His Word and it was. If we do not limit the God, t...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Chris  - Your logic is circular
    And so if something can come from nothing, why do you think of God? He is
    something, as you refer to him by a name. Where did he come from?

    My belief is that there is a God, but he is just a force, like gravity. Nothing
    more, nothing less. It's not even a he. Just a singularity.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Donna  - Mustard Seed
    He is Jesus.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Anti
    Wow Anti is actually right about this. The reason his theories are not valid is
    lack of proof. So what about the personality. Ray was simply showing the evil
    works that come about when Men use these theories to thier logic conclusions.
    Hitler tried.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - I notice...
    ...you mention the evil of the theory, but not the same evil wrought of the
    divine provenance. That also suffers from terrible (by that I mean complete)
    lack of evidence.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Matthew 5 43-48
    "You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor (AQ) (AR) and hate your
    enemy. 44 But I tell you, love your enemies [r] and pray for those who [s]
    persecute you, (AS) 45 so that you may be [t] sons of your Father in heaven. For
    He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
    righteous and the unrighteous. (AT) 46 For if you love those who love you, what
    reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you
    greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? (AU) [u] Don't
    even the Gentiles [v] do the same? 48 Be perfect, (AV) therefore, as your
    heavenly Father is perfect.

    This is polar opposite of Muslims. I really think you should leave this site
    and enter a Muslim one. You know what Chrisitians believe? We believe that we
    should love even muslims and show them the love that is shown to us by Jesus
    Christ, and the Good News that Christ died even...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Oh, trust me...
    I KNOW what christians SAY they believe. What they ACTUALLY believe is another
    matter entirely. Let's try it with a more peaceful religion, shall we? Zen.
    Actually, more of a philosophy than a religion, Zen holds all things to be
    beautiful, and all life to be sacred. It follows concepts such as cleanliness
    and self-denial. All agreeable, right? But it was the religion of choice for
    the samurai (NOT nice people, BTW!) as it had a loophole that enabled killing
    (all things are beautiful, remember? Therefore death is also beautiful!)
    without any remorse at all. There is nothing special about christians in this
    sense. Witches float 'cause satan helps 'em, right?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Marcmog  - In the beginning
    It is written:



    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Glen  - Hmmm
    You are arguing Primary Causality. Let us not forget that there is also
    secondary causality. really nothing new in the frounteer in this line of
    thinking.

    As for an athiest I would think you would not even believe in primary causality
    so arguing it is not your place.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Char  - Genius' don't believe in God?
    If you are trying to make the generalization that genius' don't believe in God
    check this out, and research for yourself.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefa ith.html#WkpXGoyTi8uA
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - We can even...
    ...quote-mine Dawkins to show his faith, right? Did you know that he's stated
    that he intends to have recording equipment around at his bedside to make sure
    that no last-minute conversion to christianity stories get out?
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - 1Theist
    Whoa, I just read your post below. Wow. I'm speechless...
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s 1Theist  - have you not been watching?
    nor does it make them any more valid.



    Dear Anti-Anything,

    Either creationists are doing much better than you claim and your'e just a jerk
    defending himself from a truly imposing threat, or, you're a cowardly bully
    repeatedly beating a much weaker and impotent victim to make himself feel like a
    big shot....and still a jerk. Either way, you're a jerk. Seriously, do you ever
    read and soberly consider some of the things you've said? And you're not as
    smart as you seem to think.



    Face it Anti-Anything, you're a sinner. And everyday of studying (or running yer
    mouth)in arrogant denial of God just takes you exponentially farther from any
    real answers or hope. God does not hide from anyone. Nor does he force our
    hearts. Quit playing ignorant games and truly use your brain for once.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Richard  - End result
    No matter how much you try,some will not believe..For myself, i believe in the
    LORD..I love HIM..I trust HIM..I fear HIM..All of us one day will be confronted
    by HIM..For those that do not believe in HIM what will you say when HE ask's why
    didn't you believe?? I do not want to be in your shoes when that time comes..
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Antitheist1  - Richard...end result;
    If nothing else, I'll be able to say that I was honest.
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s Karen  - Word of God foolishness to those who are perishing
    1 Corinthians 1:18 'FOR THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS FOOLISHNESS TO THOSE WHO ARE
    PERISHING, BUT TO US WHO ARE BEING SAVED IT IS THE POWER OF GOD. FOR IT IS
    WRITTEN: I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE; THE INTELIGENCE OF THE
    INTELLIGENT I WILL FRUSTRATE." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar?
    Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the
    world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
    him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those
    who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we
    preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and FOOLISHNESS TO GENTILES,
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God
    and the wisdom of God. FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MAN'S WISDOM,
    AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MAN'S STRENGTH.' Brothers, think of
    Reply
  • |Y-m-d H:i:s villagetree  - more!
    mocking for jesus!

    How sad.
    Reply
Write comment
Your Contact Details:
Comment:
Security
Please input the anti-spam code that you can read in the image.